was corbyn really against the remain?

[Dinner]

Even Cameron got a good dig at Corbyn saying "for heaven's sake, man, go."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36661200

[Dinner]

it's not ego, it's a battle for the soul of the party. the members and unions back him, the MPs do not. the latter can be easily replaced, the former cannot.

Enjoy losing 50 seats. It wouldn't be so bad except many of them will end up in the hands of the SNP and they will try to break up the country. He should be doing what best helps keep the UK united and in one piece and, yes, right now it really does look like peraonal vanity.

They can be an ideologically pure party if they want but that will mean an ever shrinking minoroty party. That just isn't good for the country much less the party itself.

[Dinner]

Claiming one of the main stream parties is fascist is just stupid. It certainly has a nativist bent and wants controls over the border, that last part isn't so bad nor is it fascist, but there are a ton of very real policy choices which legitimately can and should be attacked. Playing stupid name calling games doesn't do that nor does it do anything to advance a better policy choice.

So let's drop the facile name calling and actually attack theor policies because that is what will actually change people's minds and result in positive change.

[Dauphin]

Enjoy losing 50 seats. It wouldn't be so bad except many of them will end up in the hands of the SNP and they will try to break up the country. He should be doing what best helps keep the UK united and in one piece and, yes, right now it really does look like peraonal vanity.

They can be an ideologically pure party if they want but that will mean an ever shrinking minoroty party. That just isn't good for the country much less the party itself.

The only way Labour will lose 50 seats to the SNP is if the SNP stand for seats south of the border (only three Scottish seats aren't already SNP, and only one in the hands of Labour). I don't see the SNP gaining that kind of traction, although it would be hilarious to see it happen.

[Dauphin]

UKIP have never governed or had serious power in parliament. They could very well be fascist in practice, given the comments they make. E.g., see their migrants leave poster.

[Dauphin]

http://www.channel4.com/news/nigel-farage-ukip-letter-school-concerns-racism-fascism

Teachers were concerned about Farage being a fascist before it was cool.

[Dauphin]

Reference to Africa as bongo-bongo land is another classic.

[Bereta_Eder]

Not 100% accurate.

Perceived as capitalistic, ultra-liberal, neoliberal, many leftist don't like the EU.
Check the french "Front de Gauche" of Luc Mélanchon. He even claims the "Front National" of Marine Lepen has stolen his position on National Independance (http://www.lejdd.fr/Politique/Pour-J...tionale-748485)
Ask the greek SYRIZA how they feel about Europe. They accepted the EU and IMF conditions only because they needed the money.
Check the position of the spanish PODEMOS movement (keep freedom of movement, ban free trade).

Far left hates EU as much as far right. They don't hate it the same way and not with the same effects.

From my perspective, one of the positive effect of the EU is precisely to prevent extreme (left and right) policies.
EU does not allow national governments to f*ck around with the economy (see free trade, no national subsidies,Stability and Growth Pact...). And is therefor perceived as ultra-liberal by the left.
And the same way, EU has some global social policies and is perceived as too socialist by the right.

Nobody is 100% happy with this, but only moderates can get over it.
It's only natural for demagoges of both sides to be pissed off by not being allowed to implement their own crazy rules.

I will concede that the EU has this antithetical quality of attracking ire by both the left and right of the political spectrum.

The one says dissolve this neoliberal abomination, the other is saying down with the USSR.

Of course one has to note that these extremes (with major percerntage going to the far right, so an equalization can not really be done mainly because of sheer volume ) are the result of a policy which the EU hapily engages in.

[C0ckney]

Enjoy losing 50 seats. It wouldn't be so bad except many of them will end up in the hands of the SNP and they will try to break up the country. He should be doing what best helps keep the UK united and in one piece and, yes, right now it really does look like peraonal vanity.

They can be an ideologically pure party if they want but that will mean an ever shrinking minoroty party. That just isn't good for the country much less the party itself.

err...no. they lost all but one of their scottish seats in 2015, and the SNP don't run candidates south of the border. might i suggest learning a little about what's going on before trying to offer an analysis of the situation.

[Bereta_Eder]

musical break

[Dry]

UKIP

Can we call them UKuit now? (or UKwit).

[Dauphin]

Can we call them UKuit now? (or UKwit).

Sure, with a capital F.

[C0ckney]

Understanding why it happens isn't excusing it from happening. The phrase "and who could blame them" is excusing them for supporting fascism. I pointed out that it's perfectly reasonable to blame fascists for choosing to be fascists or support fascists ... and you took issue with it.

yes, this is the problem with autism i suppose: you need everything spelt out to you and cannot infer even the obvious. so here goes: i wouldn't blame the american working class voting for trump because of the alternative on offer, in much the same way that i wouldn't blame people voting for fascist parties in europe if they are offered that kind of choice. the point (which you would have got had you understood the post that you responded to) is that the left must offer these people a real choice, and not just a different flavour of neoliberalism, so that they do not feel that their best option is to vote for fascists.

[C0ckney]

UKIP have never governed or had serious power in parliament. They could very well be fascist in practice, given the comments they make. E.g., see their migrants leave poster.

dinner seems to think i'm using fascist as a insult, whereas i'm actually using it descriptively. one of the things that's interested me is how much UKIP's discourse has started to mirror that of the front national over the last couple of years. the combination of traditional far-right messages and social democratic ones works well because it allows them to attack from the both the right and the left. the mainstream left parties are thus caught in a vice which they find it hard to escape from.

[dannubis]

Arrogant because you label every policy you don't agree with as "neo-librul".
Useless because the solution you happen to like has never worked in the past.
Classy because well you being you.

Good job