The tyranny of religion

[Kidlicious]

Gods make very poor leaders, overall. None of them seem very bright. I wouldn't follow a god too stupid to realize when his lies were exposed. And "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die" was a stupid bluff anyway - "die" wasn't a concept that Adam would know about, yet.

I'm referring back to this statement. Yes, it's true Adam couldn't have known what death meant. He also didn't understand how to believe God's word or to obey God, or to be God-like. God gave him a very simple command "do not eat from the tree."
Yet Adam failed to believe that he should not eat from the tree. A simple command that should be followed can not be followed unless you believe it with your will. That's what God is all about getting us to believe his word with our will.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not theology. Don't accuse me of theology. It's just a simple run down of the possibilities of human knowing.

*sigh*

Yes, it is theology. It's also bad theology and wrong theology. It is possible for people to sin with their will. It is possible for people to be willfully convinced of error.

A simple command that should be followed can not be followed unless you believe it with your will.

This is also false. One can willfully believe something and still not do it, and one can obey an order without necessarily understanding it.

[Berzerker]

and one can obey an order without necessarily understanding it.

and you think that makes them a leader

[Kidlicious]

*sigh*

Yes, it is theology. It's also bad theology and wrong theology. It is possible for people to sin with their will. It is possible for people to be willfully convinced of error.



This is also false. One can willfully believe something and still not do it, and one can obey an order without necessarily understanding it.

If an authority figure tells you not to fart in public you can believe it in two different ways, with your intellect and with your will. If you go around telling people that you never fart in public, but when the pressure gets severe you let one go you only believe with your intellect. On the other hand, if you believe with your will that it's wrong to fart in public, then you will make every effort not to do so.

Adam and Eve believed with their intellect, not with their will.

And that's simple psychology dude.

[Ben Kenobi]

and you think that makes them a leader

I believe that Adam did understand God, but he still chose not to obey him.

[Ben Kenobi]

Adam and Eve believed with their intellect, not with their will.

Yes, they believed with their will. Once again, bad theology = bad outcomes.

[Kidlicious]

Yes, they believed with their will. Once again, bad theology = bad outcomes.

No they didn't believe with their will. If they did they wouldn't have sinned. Don't be ridiculous. We don't go around doing things against our will.

[Ben Kenobi]

No they didn't believe with their will. If they did they wouldn't have sinned. Don't be ridiculous. We don't go around doing things against our will.

Yes, we do. All the time. Bad theology = bad outcomes.

[Kidlicious]

That's a blatant troll.

[Ben Kenobi]

No troll. It's a fact. If we could simply will ourselves from sin, what's the point of having Christ?

[grumbler]

Whether Adam was set up or not really isn't the point. You called God a bad communicator/teacher. I'm not just imagining him and rationalizing that he's a good communicator. I'm explaining to you that what you're calling bad communication really isn't. You can't communicate to someone how to be godly in the same way that you can teach them how to program a computer, certainly not humans who have a very ungodly nature.

Telling a lie needlessly is bad communication. Sometimes good communications can require a lie, but needless lies are always bad communications. Adam's god threw away his credibility for nothing.

You can assert that bad communications are, really, secretly, good communications, but then you are left merely arguing by assertion, and contrary to logic. That's a silly path to follow.

[grumbler]

If an authority figure tells you not to fart in public you can believe it in two different ways, with your intellect and with your will. If you go around telling people that you never fart in public, but when the pressure gets severe you let one go you only believe with your intellect. On the other hand, if you believe with your will that it's wrong to fart in public, then you will make every effort not to do so.

Adam and Eve believed with their intellect, not with their will.

And that's simple psychology dude.

This makes no sense. One's will is an expression of one's intellect - it is based on a choice. They are not opposites or mutually exclusive. What you have isn't even psychology, let alone simple psychology.

[Nikolai]

[grumbler]

Good point, Nikolai. The omniscient Christian god makes a mockery of the concept of free will, and the only way to pretend it doesn't is through the kind of sophistry your cartoon mocks. Of course, if their deity isn't omniscient, then he sends good people to hell because of misinformation. That kind of deity just doesn't sound credible.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course, if their deity isn't omniscient, then he sends good people to hell because of misinformation. That kind of deity just doesn't sound credible.

I'm actually in a different camp. That God sees all possible futures. People choose hell, predestination either way is wrong.