What is the deal with Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Catholics.

[Ming]

Most protestants would equate, "prays to" with worship. Catholics draw St. Augustine's differences between Dulia, Hyperdulia and Latria, reserving "worship" or "adoration", which is the Latin term, for God. Hyperdulia for Mary, and Dulia ("veneration" for the Saints.

It's partially a language problem. Catholics use the Greek terms amongst themselves, that were developed long before "worship" was a word. Protestants who've used the vernacular for centuries usually have zero exposure to this difference of understanding.

Now you are speaking as an expert for MOST protestants. Not even close. You made a simple error and you are unwilling to admit it.

Because it was a protestant asking me the question. That's why. I'm using my understanding of his theology to help explain the theological differences.

Nice edit... you originally posted "I'm using protestant terminology in arguing with someone who's not protestant"
Yet another mistake on your part.

Start another thread rather than ****ting over this one then, please. We're having a polite discussion.

Just pointing out your continued mistakes in your posts... not ****ting at all. But I guess you view anybody that tries to correct your silly mistakes as not polite.

[Kidlicious]

Well part of that has to do with the differences in the Communion of Saints. What Catholics believe is that the Saints can hear us (through the power of the Holy Spirit). Most protestants do not.



You do have a relationship. Most if not all protestants consider her to be a saint. You don't share all the Catholic beliefs, but do you regard her with honor. There's nothing stopping you from asking Mary to pray for you, etc.

We never really talk about her, or any "saints," and it irritates me when people do. I'm talking about sermons which aren't gospel based.

[Ben Kenobi]

We never really talk about her, or any "saints," and it irritates me when people do. I'm talking about sermons which aren't gospel based.

"Hail Mary, full of Grace" is in Luke 1:28, fwiw.

King James renders it as:

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women"

Exactly the same phrasing as in the Rosary. There's other examples. Mary as a saint is based in the Gospels.

[Kidlicious]

Yes, the angels say that. There isn't any focus on her though. The passage that you refer to is focused on the birth of Christ, not her holiness.

Don't get me wrong, I revere greatness, and she gets due reverence for being great, along with Joseph, and many others with strong faith in the Bible. But the gospel isn't about her, just that she was a virgin, which is evidence of his holiness.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, the angels say that. There isn't any focus on her though. The passage that you refer to is focused on the birth of Christ, not her holiness.

It's a reference to how the Angels perceive her - and the blessings that God had already bestowed on her - before the birth of Christ. Why she was chosen, because from her perspective, there is nothing special about her.

Don't get me wrong, I revere greatness, and she gets due reverence for being great, along with Joseph, and many others with strong faith in the Bible. But the gospel isn't about her, just that she was a virgin, which is evidence of his holiness.

At that point, she wasn't Christ's mom. Yet the Angels are calling her Blessed.

[Kidlicious]

It's a reference to how the Angels perceive her - and the blessings that God had already bestowed on her - before the birth of Christ. Why she was chosen, because from her perspective, there is nothing special about her.



At that point, she wasn't Christ's mom. Yet the Angels are calling her Blessed.

The Bible also says blessed are the peace makers.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Bible also says blessed are the peace makers.

I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning. Wouldn't that reinforce my point?

[Kidlicious]

I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning. Wouldn't that reinforce my point?

Do they have the same status as Mary?

[Proteus_MST]

That's what the doctrine of the immaculate conception is all about.
...

How can she be immaculately conceived, if every human is subject to the "original sin" from his birth on?
AFAIK both of Marys parents are supposed to be humans ... and no angels or gods or something like that,
so this doesn´t make any sense

[Bereta_Eder]

The more I hear about christianity from an intellectual POV the more I get the sense that we were somehow duped into adopting a judaic fairy tale.

I'll revert back to the dodecatheon and have scarsily clad heatlhily breasted semi naked women dance for me for zeus.

[Ben Kenobi]

Do they have the same status as Mary?

As saints, sure. That's the point I'm making. There are many roads to sainthood.

[Ben Kenobi]

How can she be immaculately conceived, if every human is subject to the "original sin" from his birth on?

That's what the doctrine talks about. How Christ preserved Mary from original sin. The doctrine states that sanctifying grace was given to her by God at the moment of conception. So she had a human nature, but that human nature had sin excluded. It was as it was for Eve, and why people refer to Mary as the second Eve. (And Christ the second Adam).

Why God didn't do that for Christ is a bit of a complicated issue. The argument is that it really couldn't be done that way. Theologically the incarnation is very different, where the essence of Christ became infused in the body of Christ in Mary.

[Kidlicious]

As saints, sure. That's the point I'm making. There are many roads to sainthood.

So you're opinion is that He was only referring to saints?

[kentonio]

We believe that Mary was immaculately conceived, that she is sinless and that she ascended into heaven.

Where does the bible say anything about an immaculate conception?

[Ben Kenobi]

So you're opinion is that He was only referring to saints?

Well, I'm arguing that Mary is a saint, because you seem to be challenging that point. There's not much point in arguing over Mary's precise status (within Catholicism), and the arguments thereof without coming to agreement on the sainthood of Mary.

One of the presuppositions of the Catholic argument assumes that we understand Mary to be a saint.