What is the deal with Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Catholics.

[Ben Kenobi]

I"m interested in your response to what Ming posted.

Well. Ok, Kid! If you want it, I'll try my best!

The actual words of the Hail Mary:

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace"
"The Lord is with You"
"Blessed art thou Amongst Women"
"And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."

Holy Mary, Mother of God
PRAY FOR US SINNERS
Now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

When you pray a rosary, you pray the Our Father, you pray one of the mysteries, you pray the Glory Be, "glory be to the Father and the Son, etc", and the "Hail Holy Queen", "St. Michael the Archangel"

It's a petitionary prayer, we are asking Mary to pray for us, to intercede for us to Christ and to God. We are not praying directly to her, but asking for her for help.

As for St. Vianney:

to whom it is granted at all times to pray for us to the most beloved Son, pray for me in all my necessities; help me, combat for me, give thanks for me, and obtain for me pardon of all my sins

Again, it's a petitionary prayer. He is asking Mary, to pray for us to petition and intercede for us to Christ and to God. He is not asking Mary to forgive his sins, but rather to 'obtain pardon' by petitioning the pardoner.

[Ming]

Ming, I'm not going to reply to you here over Kidicious' question. If you want to revive our discussion, I'll happily discuss it with you in another thread. Start it, I'll answer it.

Why not answer it in the tread where you made the mistake? You answered Kid's question incorrectly. Discuss it. No need for another thread.

[Kidlicious]

Yeah, it's a major doctrinal difference. Catholics believe she was sinless over and above being a virgin.



Christ doesn't get his divine nature from Mary. He gets his Human nature from her. He's fully God and fully man. In a sense he's always had his divine nature, but the incarnation adds his human nature to his divine nature, when Christ chose to become man.

But if Mary is sinless, how can she have human nature. Human nature is to sin. If she didn't sin then she didn't have human nature. She had divine nature.

[Ben Kenobi]

This isn't my thread, Ming. If Kid is ok with me responding to you here, then fine.

[Ming]

Sorry Ben... We pray to Mary for her help. I've been told repeatedly from my priest to PRAY to the Virgin Mary. I guess he's wrong too... You must think you know better than an actual priest.

[Ben Kenobi]

But if Mary is sinless, how can she have human nature.

That's what the doctrine of the immaculate conception is all about.

Human nature is to sin. If she didn't sin then she didn't have human nature. She had divine nature.

Not if the immaculate conception is true. She had a sinless human nature which Christ inherited His.

[Ben Kenobi]

I've been told repeatedly from my priest to PRAY to the Virgin Mary. I guess he's wrong too... You must think you know better than an actual priest.

Does your priest teach that Mary can forgive your sins?

[Kidlicious]

Well. Ok, Kid! If you want it, I'll try my best!

The actual words of the Hail Mary:

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace"
"The Lord is with You"
"Blessed art thou Amongst Women"
"And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."

Holy Mary, Mother of God
PRAY FOR US SINNERS
Now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

When you pray a rosary, you pray the Our Father, you pray one of the mysteries, you pray the Glory Be, "glory be to the Father and the Son, etc", and the "Hail Holy Queen", "St. Michael the Archangel"

It's a petitionary prayer, we are asking Mary to pray for us, to intercede for us to Christ and to God. We are not praying directly to her, but asking for her for help.

As for St. Vianney:



Again, it's a petitionary prayer. He is asking Mary, to pray for us to petition and intercede for us to Christ and to God. He is not asking Mary to forgive his sins, but rather to 'obtain pardon' by petitioning the pardoner.

Why not just pray to the Father?

[Ming]

Does your priest teach that Mary can forgive your sins?

No... He doesn't. But that's not what you CLAIMED. We pray to the saints and the Virgin Mary all the time. Heck, my priest tells me to pray to Saint Anthony when I lose something.

The point is, you made a mistake in your answer. Why don't you simply admit it instead of talking about forgiving sins?

[Ben Kenobi]

Why not just pray to the Father?

Good question. You can. It's not like Catholics are barred from praying directly to God. We're not required to pray the rosary either.

Catholics, and Christians are called to pray for one another. That includes those who have already passed on like Mary and the Saints in heaven. The idea is that intercessory prayer is no different than asking one of your friends to pray for you.

[Ben Kenobi]

No... He doesn't. But that's not what you CLAIMED. We pray to the saints and the Virgin Mary all the time. Heck, my priest tells me to pray to Saint Anthony when I lose something.

But you don't worship St. Anthony. That's the distinction. For you, "pray to", means something different than "worship". Protestants don't usually draw this distinction.

The point is, you made a mistake in your answer. Why don't you simply admit it instead of talking about forgiving sins?

Because I didn't make a mistake, Ming. I'm using protestant terminology in arguing with someone who's protestant.

[Ming]

But you don't worship St. Anthony. That's the distinction. For you, "pray to", means something different than "worship". Protestants don't usually draw this distinction.

Yet again, you are trying to change the argument. You didn't say Catholics don't worship the Virgin Mary.

Because I didn't make a mistake, Ming. I'm using protestant terminology in arguing with someone who's not protestant.

Nice try... And why would you use protestant terminology when discussing WHAT CATHOLICS believe.
Just admit you were wrong. You simply are NOT an expert on your adopted religion.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yet again, you are trying to change the argument. You didn't say Catholics don't worship the Virgin Mary.

Most protestants would equate, "prays to" with worship. Catholics draw St. Augustine's differences between Dulia, Hyperdulia and Latria, reserving "worship" or "adoration", which is the Latin term, for God. Hyperdulia for Mary, and Dulia ("veneration" for the Saints.

It's partially a language problem. Catholics use the Greek terms amongst themselves, that were developed long before "worship" was a word. Protestants who've used the vernacular for centuries usually have zero exposure to this difference of understanding.

Nice try... And why would you use protestant terminology when discussing WHAT CATHOLICS believe.

Because it was a protestant asking me the question. That's why. I'm using my understanding of his theology to help explain the theological differences.

You simply are NOT an expert on your adopted religion.

Start another thread rather than ****ting over this one then, please. We're having a polite discussion.

[Kidlicious]

Good question. You can. It's not like Catholics are barred from praying directly to God. We're not required to pray the rosary either.

Catholics, and Christians are called to pray for one another. That includes those who have already passed on like Mary and the Saints in heaven. The idea is that intercessory prayer is no different than asking one of your friends to pray for you.

Praying for friends is different. Non-Catholics don't have a relationship with Mary. I'm sure she prays for us anyway, but why ask her to pray for us?

[Ben Kenobi]

Praying for friends is different.

Well part of that has to do with the differences in the Communion of Saints. What Catholics believe is that the Saints can hear us (through the power of the Holy Spirit). Most protestants do not.

Non-Catholics don't have a relationship with Mary. I'm sure she prays for us anyway, but why ask her to pray for us?

You do have a relationship. Most if not all protestants consider her to be a saint. You don't share all the Catholic beliefs, but do you regard her with honor. There's nothing stopping you from asking Mary to pray for you, etc.