What is the deal with Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Catholics.

[Ben Kenobi]

Where does the bible say anything about an immaculate conception?

We're Catholics. We believe in the authority of the Magisterium. That's another huge difference. Faith AND Tradition.

The longer answer is that it's the best resolution of the Christological arguments for Christ having two natures, in one person, that were resolved at Chalcedon. The doctrine itself came about around the 6th century even though it was never formally proclaimed until quite recently. Meaning, it was seen as one of the answers but not necessarily THE answer.

It's a major, major repudiation of Nestorius, who claimed that Christ didn't truly have a human nature, and that Mary was a vessel, but not truly the Theotokos.

[kentonio]

It just seems a bit odd really. If you want Christ to be a blend of human and divine then that makes sense, but then to say 'Ah but the human part was totally pure and without any sin at all!' just seems to completely take away the point of it.

Why would it make Jesus worse if he had some actual human traits, surely that'd just make him more relatable to actual people and make the sacrifice part have some actual meaning.

[Kidlicious]

Well, I'm arguing that Mary is a saint, because you seem to be challenging that point. There's not much point in arguing over Mary's precise status (within Catholicism), and the arguments thereof without coming to agreement on the sainthood of Mary.

One of the presuppositions of the Catholic argument assumes that we understand Mary to be a saint.

The issue is how to relate to saints if at all. They serve as an example. Mary serves an example just as all others who Christ blesses, including the peace makers. IMO, He was talking about those He was talking to that day as well as the saints etc.

[Ben Kenobi]

It just seems a bit odd really.

Well, that's what I thought myself. But, when you read a bit of what Nestorius was saying... it become clear that it's a problem.

IF Christ has a full human nature, than it stands to reason that he has a sinful human nature. How do you resolve that with Christ being sinless?

Then there's the problem of redemption. Christ has to be sinless in order for redemption to work. So how do you get a sinless Christ if it's known that he has a human nature? And just like everyone of us.

Nestorius argued that Mary was a vessel - that Christ took on the appearance but not the human nature or Mary. This way he could have sinless natures, but it creates problems with what we know of Christ being fully God and fully man. Which is why it was repudiated at Chalcedon.

If you want Christ to be a blend of human and divine then that makes sense, but then to say 'Ah but the human part was totally pure and without any sin at all!' just seems to completely take away the point of it.

Think of Christ as a purifying vessel, by which our sins can be purified. If the vessel that you are purifying with is contaminated - then you won't be able to actually purify people. This is why Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish.

Why would it make Jesus worse if he had some actual human traits, surely that'd just make him more relatable to actual people and make the sacrifice part have some actual meaning.

Better question, why is 'sin' considered to be an actual human trait? We were not like this in the beginning. Sin keeps us from being as we are supposed to be, not the opposite.

[Kidlicious]

The more I hear about christianity from an intellectual POV the more I get the sense that we were somehow duped into adopting a judaic fairy tale.

I'll revert back to the dodecatheon and have scarsily clad heatlhily breasted semi naked women dance for me for zeus.

Semi naked?

[Bereta_Eder]

Yes it's more sensual as it leaves more to the imagination
zeus commands it

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW now we found out also that there is no imaculate conception in the bible.

probably it was the name of some burly man with a big mustache

[Ben Kenobi]

The issue is how to relate to saints if at all. They serve as an example. Mary serves an example just as all others who Christ blesses, including the peace makers. IMO, He was talking about those He was talking to that day as well as the saints etc.

The answer lies in the Greek.

Luke 1:28

"καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν: χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ"

That's the word that the KJV renders as 'blessed'

Matthew 5:9

"μακάριοι οἱ εἰρηνοποιοί, ὅτι αὐτοὶ υἱοὶ θεοῦ κληθήσονται"

Different words. Kecharitomene is better translated as <"full of Grace"> which is another level of blessedness, beyond makapoi = <"blessed">

[Ben Kenobi]

there is no imaculate conception in the bible.

We wouldn't expect it to be in there - if it were you could be sure it was a forgery.

The doctrine only became a concern after Chalcedon.

[dannubis]

The more I hear about christianity from an intellectual POV the more I get the sense that we were somehow duped into adopting a judaic fairy tale.

I'll revert back to the dodecatheon and have scarsily clad heatlhily breasted semi naked women dance for me for zeus.

Now that is a plan...

[Bereta_Eder]

The answer lies in the Greek.

Luke 1:28

"καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν: χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ"

That's the word that the KJV renders as 'blessed'

Matthew 5:9

"μακάριοι οἱ εἰρηνοποιοί, ὅτι αὐτοὶ υἱοὶ θεοῦ κληθήσονται"

Different words. Kecharitomene is better translated as <"full of Grace"> which is another level of blessedness, beyond makapoi = <"blessed">

kecharitomeni (although it's in ancient form) indeed means the one that is full of grace. chari=grace
makarios means the one that has good fortune in his life (and is also peaceful) .

the exact translation is "blessed/serene are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of god"

[Ben Kenobi]

the exact translation is "blessed/serene are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of god"

Thanks! Glad to know I'm not mangling the Greek.

[dannubis]

Why make an exception ?

[Kidlicious]

"IF Christ has a full human nature, than it stands to reason that he has a sinful human nature. How do you resolve that with Christ being sinless?"
-BK

Simple He chose not to sin. God chooses the good on a continual basis. That's what he requires us to do, and He does it Himself. The servant can't be greater than the master.

[Ben Kenobi]

Simple He chose not to sin.

Doesn't a sinful human nature influence our will as well?

God chooses the good on a continual basis. That's what he requires us to do, and He does it Himself. The servant can't be greater than the master.

The problem with this is it's like a dam. You're saying that God is a mighty hand holding back a large plume of water, and that if he were to stop holding it back, that the plume would wash everything away.

What if God, by his nature, were Good, such that evil couldn't be present at all?