what happened to the großrossiya thread

[Bereta_Eder]

Another thing that is totally irrelevent is the "respected member of the international community".
Russian people couldn't care less about that. They wanted a functioning democracy food on their tables and a reasonable handling of public wealth,

What they got was Yelstin serving in collaboration with western and private interests in ransaking their country.
While this was taking place, I suppose you thought that all was well.

[Bereta_Eder]

About the idea that Europe has a tendency to itnrakill eachother, that's just one POV.
Germany attacked europe twice. (some say now it's the 3rd time but they are full of sh!t)

Also Europe is not one.
There plenty of countries that have not a cumbersomepast of colonization and nazism. That is to create class based society based on race in order for some to sit on their balls doing nothing while the others work their assess off simply because they have the wrong skin tone.
Capitalism and racism (and nation state) are intrawoven.


Even the pure ethnic balkan moto is less dehumanizing than that. (barely)

But yeah Europe is not one

Yugoslavia was a prime example of socialism cutting through capitalist based racial and ethnic divisions and delivering a good quality of life to its participants.

the training of UCK members by some western countries, their refusal to seek a consiliatory approach and their rage to have the last socialist country fall to pieces as well as bomb some fools to justify NATO's need to exist did as much to what happened as the ethnic tensions themselves.

A similar thing is developing in Ukraine. With some western countries pushing for a show down, training nazis etc.

If the end game was all rainbows, some would go as far as say that it's ok.

But what actually is happening are geopolitical games on the back of peoples and their ability (or lack of) to influence events.

Saying bad putin, good west is a dead end, particularly since US/UK (with guest stars this time the baltics and poland) have demonstated that they are capable of dealing only with very weak countries, not with strong ones that have a reasonable deterring capability.

It might be that history will in the end judge them by the same coin as germany.
the american holocaust seems to be very real.

[kentonio]

About the idea that Europe has a tendency to itnrakill eachother, that's just one POV.
Germany attacked europe twice. (some say now it's the 3rd time but they are full of sh!t)

Also Europe is not one.

Most of Europe had been fighting each other in some combination for at least 3,000 years. That's what makes the post-WW2 period so utterly remarkable. People who like peace would probably be in favour of stronger European ties with less US influence allowed over Europe. Three superpowers would ensure that no one could get out of control.

Saying bad putin, good west is a dead end, particularly since US/UK (with guest stars this time the baltics and poland) have demonstated that they are capable of dealing only with very weak countries, not with strong ones that have a reasonable deterring capability.

Not really, its just the case that in the nuclear age there isn't a way of dealing with strong(ish) countries with aggressive tendencies really. All you can do is draw a red line and say 'cross it and we'll nuke you' and if you don't mean it and they decide to call your bluff, that's the game over. In any realistic conventional military sense, modern day Russia is nothing to the US and Europe. Any conventional war would result in little more than a lot of dead Russians. Because we're all nuclear powers though, they get to swing their dicks around and pretend to still be a superpower. All they are really doing is destablizing Eastern Europe for no practical reason, unless you think that Russia desperately needed some more land (the one thing they've got coming out of their asses). To be fair, there were strategic reasons about sea access with Crimea, but any further push into Ukraine is just nationalist stupidity and sabre waving.

[Saras]

Then NATO in its usual militaristic expansive fashion

As evidenced by precisely what military aggression by NATO since its founding?

found a couple of guillible baltic states and persuaded them to join it

The Lithuanian leadership were uncannily prescient when they filed for membership in 1994, finally joining 10 years later. I only shudder when I imagine what sort of people's republics FSB would have created - Narva, Daugavpils, Latgalia, Zarasai, etc.

instead of going the way of Finland

which now may itself join NATO as it is indefensible against a dedicated 3D effort by Russia.

Russia felt threatened, Putin came to power, and the game changed.

Russia feels threatened by our mere existence. They kept going on about NATO bases surrounding them, when two fighter jets in Lithuania were the TOTAL NATO PRESENCE in the Baltics since 2004 up until Russian went full ****** in 2013-2014.

[Bereta_Eder]

I agree that it is remarkable that for so long there hasn't been a war but that's only true if you're inside the EU and NATO and think as "family" other europeans.
That's evidently not the case. The last decades have seen massive scale bloodshed not small of which was Syria a country with vast culture (and great ancient ties with Greece - much a part of family if you ask me.

So if one is to be exclusive of others then yes EU & NATO = peace.

But peace for what? Peace for the big capital to steal untill there's no tomorrow?
Peace to become an american nightmare?


two things to consider:

1. EU is truely dead. It's genesis was to pull together materials necessairy to wage war and to contain Germany.
The founding fathers of the EU would not recognize her now. A mere puppet of banksters and capitalists impoverishing whole nations, to the great and sustained benefit of others and even there, to their elites.

and of course this is possible because

2) there is no opposing awe. With communism temporarily out of the picture the world has fallen back to capitalist states elites fighting eachother, docily going about like blind monkeys to the next war.

What the world needs is a new Karl Marx (actually an american thinker said that)

[The Mad Monk]

...because the last one was so very, very wrong.

[pchang]

When you make nothing, forced sharing sounds GREAT!

[Bereta_Eder]

Exactly my point.

[kentonio]

I agree that it is remarkable that for so long there hasn't been a war but that's only true if you're inside the EU and NATO and think as "family" other europeans.
That's evidently not the case. The last decades have seen massive scale bloodshed not small of which was Syria a country with vast culture (and great ancient ties with Greece - much a part of family if you ask me.

I very specifically said Europe for a very good reason. If we ever go back to a situation where Europe starts fighting each other again, there's a very good chance humanity won't survive it. It'd be nice to not have wars anywhere else either, but the truth is that a civil war in Syria doesn't carry nearly the same global risks.

[Hauldren Collider]

Exactly my point.

I think his point is that you should try making something.

[Bereta_Eder]

I understood that. My reply was that banksters who make nothing would naturally think that force sharing the fruits from the toil of others is a great thing.

[Dinner]

Both Finland and Sweden are kind of defacto members of NATO not only are all of their military standards and equipment set up to NATO standards but the but the five nations of greater Scandinavia (Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland) have their own Nordic mini NATO and I just don't see how you can have three of those countries in NATO and two out with drawing in those other two via their mini NATO.

[regexcellent]

Sweden clandestinely cooperated with NATO all the time in the Cold War, and it supported partisans in the Baltics through the '50s.

[Hauldren Collider]

Finland joining NATO would be a great way to tweak the Russians but honestly given that they are in the EU and the Eurozone I think it's pretty clear that in a confrontation between them and Russia we and the rest of NATO would end up being involved.

[Hauldren Collider]

I understood that. My reply was that banksters who make nothing would naturally think that force sharing the fruits from the toil of others is a great thing.

So you don't think banks make anything of value?

I suppose then you don't see anything useful about credit cards, debit cards, checking accounts, savings accounts, mortgages, business loans, car loans, credit lines, ATMs, online payments, or safe-deposit boxes? I must admit I am impressed by your asceticism.