what happened to the großrossiya thread

[Bereta_Eder]

Extend their duration but not their reach as was the initial EU intention (but blocked by Greece and then out of the blue came half a dozen other EU states supporting that position).
Now the number is even higher.

[PLATO]

Believing off the bat that Putin, in his apex of power, had someone assasssinated is assasine.
And no, he's not necessarily the bad guy (only if compared to the US chickenhawks pr!cks).
He did elevate the standard of living after the cleptocratic alcoholic western darling called yelstin.
So no, not all bad not by a long shot.

Now **** off back to washington or something.

Yeah...and there were no Russian soldiers in Ukraine...and no Russian soldiers were involved in Crimea takeover. Of course Russia didn't just threaten the Dutch with a possible nuclear attack if they put in a missle shield that might...just might...be able to stop a rogue Iranian missle. Of couse you are probably right since none of Putin's other political enemies have ever wound up mysteriously dead and none of his rivals have ever gone to jail under dubious charges.

He is just such a good man. Must have been that loving training he received in the KGB or maybe even his close relationship with those philanthropic Spetsnaz guys he hung around with.

You know, after writing all that, I just don't see why anyone would think ill of him...

[PLATO]

Extend their duration but not their reach as was the initial EU intention (but blocked by Greece and then out of the blue came half a dozen other EU states supporting that position).
Now the number is even higher.

So...extending sanctions is being against them in your world? Okie dokie.

[Bereta_Eder]

That's just looking at micro-level.
In the large scheme of things, Russia had a total basketcase named yelstin who surrendered the country to oligarchs.
Then NATO in its usual militaristic expansive fashion found a couple of guillible baltic states and persuaded them to join it instead of going the way of Finland.
Russia felt threatened, Putin came to power, and the game changed.

[Bereta_Eder]

So...extending sanctions is being against them in your world? Okie dokie.

Well it extended them untill September when the original text talked about extending their reach to cover far more people. So in that respect, it failed.

I was also talking about what happens now. Where european countries stand at this moment. Meanwhile Russia is already prepping its markets for re-admission of products from selected countries, mainly agricultural ones.

[PLATO]

That's just looking at micro-level.

Micro, in this case, mirrors reality.

In the large scheme of things, Russia had a total basketcase named yelstin who surrendered the country to oligarchs.

No argument there. Yeltsin did little good for Russia...other than standing on a tank when a Russian leader needed to stand on a tank. Other than that, we totally agree.

Then NATO in its usual militaristic expansive fashion found a couple of guillible baltic states and persuaded them to join it instead of going the way of Finland.

Too much Russian propoganda for you I think. The Baltics have always been scared ****less of Russia. NATO has done a great job of keeping Europe from tearing itself apart (Europe's usual passtime for the preceeding centuries) and until Russia stole Crimea had kept a single boarder from changing in Europe due to military action of an outside force for over 60 years.

Russia felt threatened, Putin came to power, and the game changed.

This is the part that really mystifies me. All the "major" European powers were scaling back their militaries. The U.S. had actually removed ALL of its Armour from Europe. The militaries of NATO were definately waning. Yet Russia felt threatened from an alliance that can only call its members to war IF ATTACKED. There is no offensive obligation for NATO members to participate in any war of aggression against anyone.

Russia was not threatened. Russia was swiftly becoming a respected member of the international community.

When Putin first came to power, he did some really good things for Russia and truly acted like a responsible leader of a great nation. Over time he has slipped into a paranoid/agressive stance that seems to be worsening by the month. He is no longer good for Russia. Russia is, sadly, taking a step backward.

[PLATO]

Well it extended them untill September when the original text talked about extending their reach to cover far more people. So in that respect, it failed.

I was also talking about what happens now. Where european countries stand at this moment. Meanwhile Russia is already prepping its markets for re-admission of products from selected countries, mainly agricultural ones.

I do think that, while the sanctions have had a negative effect on Russia, they will never alter Russian policy. Sanctions can be a double edged sword and have heart many EU countries as well. Putin and his staff have done a really good job of carrot and stick diplomacy in several countries. I agree that the sanction regimen will be short lived...barring a return to hostilities in Ukraine, but the EU countries did vote unanimously to extend them until Russia lives up to its word...even with the full court press by Russia.

[Bereta_Eder]

Finland also was scared sh!tless of Russia.
That's where the term "finlindization" comes from. The trade off to having an independent external policy for peace.
It didn't join NATO, took a big chance on that one but was thinking of its own interests, and proceeded in creating a robust economy, without angering Russia and is thus in a pristine condition to keep busting southerners' balls about austerity.

Meanwhile the baltics run off to NATO, and Russia did feel threatened.

On a plus side, Lithuania now has mandatory consription. I always felt that leads to a democratization of the army, instead of leaving it at the claws of mercenaries, so there's a good to come out of that.

There's a video that has Putin saying that noone cared for Russia so long as its army was rusting. Now that it isn't, the world cares.
Also wasn't the antimissile shield done at that time too? Or was that scrapped?

And borders did change. Admitedly they didn't change inside NATO but outside of it, they did.

[Bereta_Eder]

There is no offensive obligation for NATO members to participate in any war of aggression against anyone.

That myth was shattered in Yugoslavia.
Perhaps it did hold water before, when the Warsaw pact was also in effect.

[PLATO]

Finland also was scared sh!tless of Russia.
That's where the term "finlindization" comes from. The trade off to having an independent external policy for peace.
It didn't join NATO, took a big chance on that one but was thinking of its own interests, and proceeded in creating a robust economy, without angering Russia and is thus in a pristine condition to keep busting southerners' balls about austerity.

Meanwhile the baltics run off to NATO, and Russia did feel threatened.

I have no disagreement that Finland has done pretty well in maintaining good ties with both Russia and Europe. That doesn't mean that joining a DEFENSIVE alliance should make the Baltics a threat to Russia. I have heard the arguments that missles launched from the Baltics would give Russia little time to respond...missles? From the Baltics? There are much less painful ways for a country to commit suicide. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. could probably launch whatever it needed from subs that would be just a few miles off shore if that is what they wanted to do. Russia had no need to feel threatened. The truth is more likely that they felt that they could no longer dictate policy to the Baltics by exerting threatening pressure and that pissed them off.

On a plus side, Lithuania now has mandatory consription. I always felt that leads to a democratization of the army, instead of leaving it at the claws of mercenaries, so there's a good to come out of that.

Whatever works I guess. I feel that a highly motivated professional volunteer force does a better job, but okay...

There's a video that has Putin saying that noone cared for Russia so long as its army was rusting. Now that it isn't, the world cares.

The truth is that no one feared Russia and their economic might just didn't carry the muscle for them to be able to throw their weight around like they wanted to. Now that they are threatening people, of course they are going to care. Russia thinks that the economic numbers are in their favor for a new military buildup...they need not push that theory to far or they will, once again, learn the folly of that path.

Also wasn't the antimissile shield done at that time too? Or was that scrapped?

The missle shield is several things...it is a response to possible Iranian missles...a hedge to the future against the nuclearization of the entire middle east...protection against terrorist obtaing a nuclear missle. It is NOT, however, any kind of a defense against Russia's abilities to launch a massive strike. And no...it wasn't scrapped. It was put on hold for a while, but not scrapped.

And borders did change. Admitedly they didn't change inside NATO but outside of it, they did.

"...due to military action of an outside force for over 60 years" Which ones? Or are you speaking of NATO involvement in stopping genocide in Yugoslavia?

[PLATO]

That myth was shattered in Yugoslavia.
Perhaps it did hold water before, when the Warsaw pact was also in effect.

It is not a myth. There was no OBLIGATION by any member of NATO to participate...and in fact, many did not.

It is far more a case of the powers that WANTED to act just happened to all be NATO members and they utilized NATO facilities under the "name" of a NATO operation. Do you recall Turkey's role? How about Potugal?

The only obligation in NATO is to common defense...and even then that is not absolute.

[Proteus_MST]

...
Russia felt threatened, Putin came to power, and the game changed.

I heard different stories ... about Yeltsin building Putin up as his successor, against a contender who promised more democracy in russia.
And the 2nd Chechnya war having been started started as a propaganda tool to support Putin against said rival in the upcoming elections (to give the russians the feeling of an external threat and present Putin as the strong man russia needs in these times)

[kentonio]

Russia was not threatened. Russia was swiftly becoming a respected member of the international community.

Yep, that's the sad bit.

[regexcellent]

It's hard to cry about NATO intervention in Yugoslavia. Oh man, those poor Serbs, not being allowed to kill all the Albanians.

[Dauphin]

Wasn't it seen as a Clinton wag-the-dog exercise at the time?