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Yet another damn terrorist attack

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  • quite long but an interesting read

    we don’t yet know the full identities or backgrounds of the eight killers who carried out the carnage on the streets of Paris on Friday night. François Hollande has suggested that killings were organised abroad but with support from within France.

    Whoever the Paris killers may eventually turn out to be, until now much of the problem of terrorism in Europe has been created not by foreign terrorists but by homegrown jihadis. The Kouachi brothers, for instance, responsible for the Charlie Hebdo killings in January, were born and raised in Paris. So was Amedy Coulibaly, the gunman who, that same weekend, attacked a kosher supermarket in Paris and killed four hostages. Three of the four suicide bombers responsible for the 7/7 attack on London tubes and a bus were born in Britain.

    In the past, when London was seen as the capital of Islamism and of terror groups – Londonistan, many called it – French politicians and policy-makers suggested that Britain faced a particular problem because of its multicultural policies. Such policies, they claimed, were divisive, failing to create a common set of values or sense of nationhood. As a result, many Muslims were drawn towards Islamism and violence. “Assimilationist” policies, French politicians insisted, avoided the divisive consequences of multiculturalism and allowed every individual to be treated as a citizen, not as a member of a particular racial or cultural group.

    So how do we account for the way that terrorism has been nurtured in assimilationist France too? And how different are French assimilationist and British multicultural policies?

    Many of the French criticisms of multiculturalism were valid. British policy-makers welcomed diversity, but tried to manage it by putting people into ethnic and cultural boxes, defining individual needs and rights by virtue of the boxes into which people are put, and using those boxes to shape public policy. They treated minority communities as if each were a distinct, homogenous whole, each composed of people all speaking with a single voice, each defined by a singular view of culture and faith. The consequence has been the creation of a more fragmented, tribal society, which has nurtured Islamism. The irony, though, is that the French policies, from a very different starting point, have ended up at much the same place.

    There are, it is often claimed, some five million Muslims in France, making it the largest Muslim community in western Europe. In fact, there are five million people of North African origin in France. Most are secular. A growing number have, in recent years, become attracted to Islam. But even today, according to a 2011 poll by the l’Institut Français d’Opinion Publique (Ifop), only 40% call themselves “observant Muslims” – and only 25% attend Friday prayers.

    First-generation postwar immigrants to France faced, just like their counterparts in Britain, considerable racism. The second generation, again as in Britain, was far less willing than their parents had been to accept passively social discrimination and police brutality. They organised, largely through secular movements, and took to the streets, often in violent protest. In autumn 2005, riots swept through French banlieues and cities as youth and police fought pitched battles, much as they had in Britain two decades earlier.

    During the 1970s and early 1980s, the French authorities had taken a relatively laid-back stance on multiculturalism, generally tolerating cultural and religious differences, at a time when few within minority communities expressed their identity in cultural or religious terms. The then president François Mitterrand even coined the slogan “droit à la differénce” – the right to be different.

    As tensions within North African communities became more open, and as the far-right Front National emerged as a political force, so the “droit à la differénce” was abandoned for a more hardline assimilationist approach, with the problems of North African communities presented in terms of their “difference”. Few of the youth who rioted in 2005 saw themselves as Muslim. But the authorities portrayed the riots and the disaffection they expressed less as a response to racism than as an expression of a growing threat to France – that of Islam. In principle, the French authorities rejected the multiculturalist approach that Britain had adopted. In practice, however, they treated North African migrants and their descendants, in a very “multicultural” way – as a single community, and primarily as a “Muslim” community. Islam became symbolic of the anxieties about values and identity that now beset France.

    A much-discussed 2013 poll conducted by Ipsos and the Centre for Political Studies Sciences (Cevipof) found that 50% of the population believed “the decline of France”, both economic and cultural, to be “inevitable”. Under a third thought that democracy worked well, while 62% considered most politicians to be corrupt. The report described a “fractured France”, divided into tribal groups, alienated from mainstream politics, distrustful of their leaders and resentful of Muslims. The main sentiment driving French society, the report concluded, was fear.

    Faced with a distrustful and disengaged public, politicians have attempted to reassert the notion of a common French identity. But unable to define clearly the ideas and values that characterise the nation, they have done so primarily by creating hostility against symbols of alien-ness, the most visible of which is Islam.

    The irony is that not only is France’s North African population predominantly secular, but even practising Muslims are relatively liberal in their views. According to the Ifop poll, 68% of observant women never wear the hijab. Fewer than a third of practising Muslims would forbid their daughters from marrying a non-Muslim. Eighty-one per cent accept that women should have equal rights in divorce; 44% have no problem with the issue of co-habitation; 38% support the right to abortion; and 31% approve of sex before marriage. Only on homosexuality is there a deeply conservative stance: 77% of practising Muslims disapprove.

    Yet, far from including North Africans as full citizens, French policy has tended to ignore the racism and discrimination they have faced and institutionalised their marginalisation. Many in France look upon its citizens of North African origins not as French but as “Arab” or as “Muslim”. But the second generation within North African communities are often as estranged from their parents’ cultures and mores, and from mainstream Islam, as they are from wider French society.

    Consider, for instance, the Kouachi brothers,. They were raised in Gennevilliers, a northern suburb of Paris. Cherif Kouachi, who appeared to mastermind the operation, only rarely attended mosque and appeared not to be particularly religious, but was driven by a sense of social estrangement. He was, according to Mohammed Benali, president of the local mosque, of a ‘‘generation that felt excluded, discriminated against and, most of all, humiliated. They spoke and felt French, but were regarded as Arabic; they were culturally confused.”

    According to Benali, Kouachi was most affronted by the imam’s insistence on the importance of political engagement. “When the imam told everyone to enrol on the register of electors so they could take part in elections, and play their part in society, he refused. He said he wasn’t a French citizen and wanted nothing to do with the democratic process. He then walked out of the mosque.”

    Kouachi’s story is not that different from that of Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the 7/7 bombings in London. They are of a milieu caught not between two cultures, as it is often claimed, but between no cultures. As a consequence, some of them have turned to Islamism and a few have expressed their rage through jihadi-style violence.

    There are aspects of both the multiculturalist and assimilationist approaches that are valuable. The multicultural acceptance of diversity and the assimilationist resolve to treat everyone as citizens, not as bearers of specific racial or cultural histories, are both welcome. And there are aspects of both that are damaging – the multiculturalist tendency to place minorities into ethnic and cultural boxes, the assimilationist attempt to create a common identity by institutionalising the differences of groups deemed not to belong.

    An ideal policy would marry the beneficial aspects of the two approaches – celebrating diversity while treating everyone as citizens, rather than as simply belonging to particular communities. In practice, though, Britain and France have both institutionalised the more damaging features – Britain placing minorities into ethnic and cultural boxes, France attempting to create a common identity by treating those of North African origin as the Other. The consequence has been that in both Britain and France societies have become more fractured and tribal. And in both nations a space has been opened up for Islamism to grow.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dannubis View Post
      You didn't make an argument. You went off on your usual tangent. I merely obliged.
      I made an argument: namely that these neighborhoods are left to their own devices and they need assistance.
      I also made a pararel between villagers and refugees and their absorbion in urban centers addressing your point.

      You replied: socialism.

      Comment


      • You did say redistribution.
        I replied that redistribution in this case obviously didn't work.

        Now, the way I see it, we can make this latest mass migration wave work in two ways:

        1. either you control the influx
        or
        2. you enforce a clear integration/education path for each and every immigrant. Those who do not follow said route need to go.

        The problem with number 1 is countless of refugees not being accepted in the EU. They (after being fed and cared for) will have to go back to their devastated homeland
        The problem with number 2 is finding out how far you want to go because it will eat away in their personal freedom (e.g, no you can't move to Brussels, because we have enough problems there as is, you have to live here, because of your skin color)

        If you can see a clear solution here I guess you just won the nobel peace price.
        "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

        Comment


        • Interesting read cockney.
          That there is racism is a given.

          The whole thing could to a degree be attributed to lack of concrete identity (into which in part some people are forced to due to racism/ the "other" connotation)

          it also reminds me of something I heard listening to the french channels yesterday.
          That the braind dead muricans, as brainddead as they are (or maybe becuase of it) still retain some sort of national pride in their country "flag, president, USA, USA" whereas of course the much more cultured and wise european nations has no need for such excrement.

          But, this means it lacks a unifying banner under which all of its divergent populations will feel that they belong in something.

          some clueless BBC reporter mentioned that the french are nation proud. Even if this is the case (food, culture, moulin rouge I don't know) somehow theyhave managed to exlcude the naturalized n. africans from that although they feel french as well. Strange.
          Belgian are even worse. A vast majority don't even know what their national anthem is.
          (not that this is necessairily bad. i'm puting this in the above framework)

          Comment


          • point being that a strong national identity (that of course doesn't divert from the establish internationalist, humanitarian, democratic and liberal values) could be useful.
            aka, you're greek (or whatother nationality) don't care where you're from

            Comment


            • which brings us to the matter of the flag.

              "progressives" wanted to ban school military parades (a remnant of older times) in which the best student of his/her class carries the flag (the supreme honour) and leads his/her classmates who follow in the parade.

              it wasn't banned and the flag was let to be carried by WHOEVER was the best student (if he had or not the nationality was not important)

              So you see ethiopians, albanians whoever carry the flag proudly as the best students representing the best greece has.

              Now tell me which of those kids, when they grow up is going to go against his country? noone

              (they will tax evade though, being true greeks)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by dannubis View Post
                You did say redistribution.
                I replied that redistribution in this case obviously didn't work.
                Was it even tried?
                What is the municipal tax uccle residents pay vis a vis their income capacity and what is it in molenbeek?
                it should be zero.
                anyway

                Now, the way I see it, we can make this latest mass migration wave work in two ways:

                1. either you control the influx
                or
                2. you enforce a clear integration/education path for each and every immigrant. Those who do not follow said route need to go.

                The problem with number 1 is countless of refugees not being accepted in the EU. They (after being fed and cared for) will have to go back to their devastated homeland
                The problem with number 2 is finding out how far you want to go because it will eat away in their personal freedom (e.g, no you can't move to Brussels, because we have enough problems there as is, you have to live here, because of your skin color)

                If you can see a clear solution here I guess you just won the nobel peace price.
                I don't think you get some basic facts.
                a) you can't stop the immigration of refugees
                b) you can't control exactly where they go (apart from giving certain incentives)


                the rising sea will stop them for the winter.
                You have exactly half a season to make their lives remotely affordable where they come from in order for the next summer repetition not to be so large

                Comment


                • Originally posted by dannubis View Post
                  You did say redistribution.
                  I replied that redistribution in this case obviously didn't work.

                  Now, the way I see it, we can make this latest mass migration wave work in two ways:

                  1. either you control the influx
                  or
                  2. you enforce a clear integration/education path for each and every immigrant. Those who do not follow said route need to go.

                  The problem with number 1 is countless of refugees not being accepted in the EU. They (after being fed and cared for) will have to go back to their devastated homeland
                  The problem with number 2 is finding out how far you want to go because it will eat away in their personal freedom (e.g, no you can't move to Brussels, because we have enough problems there as is, you have to live here, because of your skin color)

                  If you can see a clear solution here I guess you just won the nobel peace price.
                  But there is a clear solution.

                  For the EU as a whole to man up and sort out the Frontex service and make it fit for purpose. Which means getting my selfish and small-minded nation to pony up its contributions and stop looking only after its own interests.

                  This should allow us to stem the flow and sort the real refugees from the economic migrants and chancers by keeping them in reception centres until they're processed.

                  And you don't enforce anything, except for the requirement for citizenship that you need to be fluent in the language of your chosen country by a reasonable period of time.

                  Also, the majority of refugees from Syria and Iraq are actually well educated, so education shouldn't be a problem.

                  Even for those with education issues, as long as the right opportunities are given to the, as they should be given to all citizens, then they should have the opportunity to flourish.

                  It is interesting that many immigrants to the UK do extremely well once they get the opportunities that they did not have in their home countries.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by C0ckney View Post
                    you see that is exactly the sort of scaremongering that one has come to expect from the far-right.

                    the EU commission estimates that around 3 million migrants will come to the EU by 2017. That's 0.4% of the EU's population, or one for every two hundred and fifty EU residents. i think the world's largest economic area can handle it.
                    That is just the migrant but once you count family reunitals the numbers are far far higher. For instance the German government has said the expected 1.5 million (by Dec 31st) direct migrants will become 7 million once they get to bring over their entire extended families to also sign up for welfare.
                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by notyoueither View Post
                      They might try to integrate immigrants. You know, give young men useful jobs and hope for the future instead of leaving them to live in ghettos.
                      How do you integrate people who do not want to be integrated?
                      Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                      Comment


                      • By wanting to integrate them

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dinner View Post
                          That is just the migrant but once you count family reunitals the numbers are far far higher. For instance the German government has said the expected 1.5 million (by Dec 31st) direct migrants will become 7 million once they get to bring over their entire extended families to also sign up for welfare.
                          Link?

                          Also, are we talking migrants or refugees here?

                          Many refugees simply want to return home once it is safe for them to do so.

                          Comment


                          • I don't think we should take the ravings of a far right winger seriously

                            Comment


                            • Also Germany could take all the syrian population and still have no problem since it is constitutionally forbidden for its army to conduct any meaningful operations outside native soil

                              Comment


                              • I am talking about migrants as very few of the migrants are actually refugees fleeing for their lives. They have nice safe UN Camps to go to where their basic needs are met. They naturally prefer to go to Europe for economic reasons (mostly for the free welfare goodies) but economic migrants have no legal right to immigrate unless the host country let's them. Actual refugees do have legal rights; that is why it is important to note they are not refugees by the UN definition.
                                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                                Comment

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