The Great Scottish FREEEEEEEEEDOOOMMMMM!!!!1!!! vote

[C0ckney]

Socialism (in the way you're referring to) died down largely because those 'working class' people started merging into the middle classes with the demise of the manufacturing industries. How would you actually define a working class person these days? Are they working class if they self identify? If so a lot of management level office workers are working class. Do you have to work in a manual industry?

for me it died in the 80s with militant. labour decided that grassroots politics was far too inconvenient and messy and retreated into the top down style we see today.

the working class, in my view, are those who work for wages, although there are some salaried workers who fit in to the category (for example call centre workers are usually salaried but are working class), because of outlook, skills, tastes etc. and of course there are other cases too (usually people engaged in piece work are working class).

Why would economic security not be a huge concern to the working class? If anything it's a bigger concern to them that to anyone, as they have a far smaller blanket of security protecting them again job losses and the like. I hate this idea that working class people just care about the flag and the queen and aren't really interested/engaged in economic stuff. That kind of thinking has been the death of countless governments. All politics is local, you should never forget that.

Edit: apologies, I misread your post as saying those were the things the working class cared about rather than the narrative the Tories use. Sorry, been driving for over 7 hours today and I think it's melted my brain.

actually i meant both. i don't think it's silly for the working class to care about economics, but i do think it's very silly for them to believe that the tories represent their interests in the economic sphere; though i suppose one should never underestimate peoples' capacity for deluding themselves. therefore, it seems clear that working class tories must buy into the other narratives like, as you say, the flag and the queen; or perhaps a vague vision of england in its past glory that probably never existed, and which they can vicariously enjoy and take pride in, while blotting out the harsh realities of real life. in much the same way in fact as a working class man at the beginning of the 20th century might have taken pride in the empire and 'our' dominance over so much of the globe, while being ruthlessly sweated and exploited by his 'betters'.

"all politics is local" if only that were true!

[C0ckney]

Things started to go **** as soon as they decided not to.prevent Irish independence. They should have done what Turkey did for 35 years with the Kurdish separatists. Both the U.K. and Ireland would be better off now if they had as the U.K. would have more resources while Ireland wouldn't have suffered 60 years of economic stagnation.

yes i'm sure years of brutal repression would have left everyone better off.

good grief.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ψωμι ελια και κοκο βασιλεια

"bread, olive and koko as a king"

a small phrase that used to describe, mockingly, the working class people who supported the king.
(it means you don't have enough to eat but you get mystified by what dress the queen wore in that gala)

the only ones that can make a difference for the working class are the ones that deliver massive wealth redistribution and augment all public instutitions. from health to education etc (in a non corruptive way, I might add)

class awareness is not a small thing. most people don't have it.

[C0ckney]

yes absolutely. capitalism's sharp edges can be blunted by wealth redistribution and good public services, or capitalism and the state which protects it, can be destroyed. i can see why workers and peasants might choose the first, even though their interests would be better served by the second.

[The Mad Monk]

Ah , but corruption will always find a way.

[Bereta_Eder]

not always.
depends on how many fairy tales an average stomach can digest.

[C0ckney]

corruption invariably relies on there being a state apparatus in place.

[Dauphin]

corruption invariably relies on there being a state apparatus in place.

Theft, fraud, bribery, embezzlement, blackmail, extortion?

What state apparatus is required? These things happen in lawless states with no recognisable government.

[Dauphin]

Or are you saying corruption of state apparatus requires there to be a state apparatus in place?

[Bereta_Eder]

I'm sure some degree of state monitoring is better than paying with credit card for each breath you take or each step on a sidewalk in true neoliberalist fashion.

[C0ckney]

Or are you saying corruption of state apparatus requires there to be a state apparatus in place?

essentially yes.

of course you can use a broader definition of corruption, but that wasn't my understanding of the post i was responding to.

[Dr Strangelove]

But minus the invading foreign army and the fact that those are artificial movements entirely created and financed by a hostile foreign power.

Oh, no, it's simply not possible that the Russian population of eastern Ukraine might have been deeply concerned about the Ukrainian government having been taken over by mobs who had been chanting "Death to Russians!" in the streets of the capital for the previous 4 months. I mean, let's say 20 years from now when the majority of California is Hispanic you won't mind it if a mob chanting "Death to Anglos!" storms the capitol in Sacrmento, will you?

[Ben Kenobi]

The appropriate analogy would be gringos in Mexico, Dr. Strangelove. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't believe they are any more mistreated in Mexico than Russians in the Ukraine.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Do Mexicans chant "death to gringos" regularly?

They are probably visible from Texas, and if you listen quietly at night, may even hear the chants!

[N35t0r]

What? the USA used to be part of Mexico?