Israeli Police Beat 15 year old American Citizen

[dannubis]

These are my two questions for anybody saying that Israel and Hamas are morally equivalent:

1. Do you believe that Israel is trying to kill as many civilians as possible?
2. Do you believe that Hamas is trying to kill as many civilians as possible?

That's it. They're very simple, straightforward, yes or no questions.

If you refuse to answer them it shows me that you lack the intellectual honesty and moral courage to confront the real facts and issues. It shows me that you are a bandwagon hopping poseur who heard somewhere that it was cool to say "Both sides are at fault" but never really considered the reality of the situation. It shows me that you're a ****ing idiot.

Trying or actually achieving in killing ?

[Dauphin]

IRA launches repeated rocket attacks on half of Britain. Cockney blames London when it takes action to stop it.

And talking of Northern Ireland. Was it military and paramilitary activity that lead to peace?

[Felch]

And talking of Northern Ireland. Was it military and paramilitary activity that lead to peace?

Sinn Fein was willing to accept a peaceful solution. Article 13 of the Hamas Charter specifically rules out any compromise or peaceful solution.

[Dauphin]

Ireland had to change its constitution too.

The nineteenth amendment.

[Hauldren Collider]

Hamas is not interested in peace. They've been offered extremely generous peace deals many, many times and have always rejected to even come to the negotiating table. You have to be as dumb as Cockney to think that Hamas is interested in allowing the existence of a Jewish state in the middle east.

Israel does not bomb palestinians for ****s and giggles. They bomb palestinians to keep themselves from being bombed. There's only one side here to tries to kill people for the hell of it. That'd be Hamas. If Hamas didn't seek the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews, there'd be no Gaza blockade. There'd be no bombing. There'd be no wall. There'd be peace in Palestine and Israel.

Israel goes to remarkably great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. If you don't believe this, you may as well go back to your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

[Dauphin]

Israel does not bomb palestinians for ****s and giggles. They bomb palestinians to keep themselves from being bombed.

And yet rockets keep falling. It is not an effective strategy

Israel goes to remarkably great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. If you don't believe this, you may as well go back to your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I don't disagree. What I disagree with is the blame the innocents who get caught in the middle for being in the middle.

Israel has the moral high ground position for many reasons, but they do a good job of pissing away that support amongst non-Americans. I want to support Israel, Hamas are indefensible, but Israel doesn't make it easy.

[Ben Kenobi]

And yet rockets keep falling. It is not an effective strategy

Obviously the solution is to take control over Gaza outright.

[Felch]

Ireland had to change its constitution too.

The nineteenth amendment.

Ireland never claimed Great Britain in its Constitution. That would be the equivalent to Hamas's position.

[Felch]

And yet rockets keep falling. It is not an effective strategy

It's like saying arresting criminals isn't an effective strategy because some crime still exists. Think how many more rockets would be fired if the IDF weren't attacking Hamas's infrastructure and launch sites.

I don't disagree. What I disagree with is the blame the innocents who get caught in the middle for being in the middle.

What about human shields who put themselves in harm's way? Aren't they responsible for their actions?

[regexcellent]

and talking of deception there's another one: this idea that if israel with its well-equipped and american financed military infrastructure, its 175,000 active personnel (along with 565,000 reservists) and its nuclear weapons(!), would somehow become defenceless if they stopped stealing from, humiliating and killing palestinian civilians.

Well, if it stopped using those things, then yes it would become defenseless, ipso facto. Jesus Christ.

If Israel didn't defend itself from attacks like the ones Hamas has been carrying out on a regular basis, to wit: kidnapping and killing teenagers, launching rockets, attempting (and sometimes succeeding with) bombings, then it would be defenseless by definition. The fact that this is not stunningly obvious to you only leaves me with one very uncharitable conclusion about your intelligence.

[Sava]

nazi pig

[Al B. Sure!]

Well, if it stopped using those things, then yes it would become defenseless, ipso facto. Jesus Christ.

If Israel didn't defend itself from attacks like the ones Hamas has been carrying out on a regular basis, to wit: kidnapping and killing teenagers, launching rockets, attempting (and sometimes succeeding with) bombings, then it would be defenseless by definition. The fact that this is not stunningly obvious to you only leaves me with one very uncharitable conclusion about your intelligence.

It's like the idea of a feedback loop is completely foreign to you. The fact that you cannot recognize one leave me with a very uncharitable conclusion about your intelligence.

[Hauldren Collider]

There's no feedback loop here, Alby. Hamas isn't retaliating for anything. They instigated the whole thing and Israel would like nothing better than to de-escalate. They actually have avoided escalating and have responded only to eliminate Hamas' ability to shoot rockets at them. Escalation would be bombing targets of opportunity rather than what is essentially counter-battery fire which is what is going on right now.

[Al B. Sure!]

There's no feedback loop here, Alby. Hamas isn't retaliating for anything. They instigated the whole thing and Israel would like nothing better than to de-escalate. They actually have avoided escalating and have responded only to eliminate Hamas' ability to shoot rockets at them. Escalation would be bombing targets of opportunity rather than what is essentially counter-battery fire which is what is going on right now.

So nothing about Israel's treatment of Palestinians including the killing of Palestinians affects support for Hamas? Grow the hell up. Nothing in this world is black and white.

Our own counterinsurgency doctrine, developed by Generals Patraeus and Mattis, acknowledges the following admonitions:


Sometimes, the more you protect your force, the less secure you may be

Sometimes, the more force is used, the less effective it is

Sometimes doing nothing is the best reaction

Some of the best weapons for counterinsurgents do not shoot

[Hauldren Collider]

Go on and suck Petraeus' dick, why don't you. Israel's been doing this counterinsurgency thing a hell of a lot longer than we have, and are way better at it. Given how colossally we've ****ed up in Afghanistan and Iraq, not to mention Vietnam, and the fact that the West Bank and Hezbollah have been basically quiet for what, almost a decade now? We should be taking leafs from their book, not the other way around.