The Catholic Church is definitely not to blame for this!

[Berzerker]

So you don't believe in altruism at all?

Not sure, I'm dubious...I just know I feel good about doing charitable acts and that disqualifies me as atruistic. Now what about a religion and Church that values doing good? Is it altruistic for people who believe in that God to do good? Are they not acting within a framework of belief that'll reward them for doing good?

Didn't Jesus suffer in exchange for some role in "Heaven"? How about the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect others? Who made the greater sacrifice? The soldier... But did the soldier act based on a belief in "salvation" or entirely atheistic motivations? I dont see how we can detach the selfish self from selflessness. If some "deity" would heal all disease and end suffering in exchange for one life (ignore the illogic), wouldn't plenty of people offer to take the deal? I would, but I'd do it knowing full well of the good being accomplished and I'd go with a smile on my face.

Ahh. That actually explains quite a bit. I wish I had been made to go when I was younger.

it was a joke, I've got centuries of reasons to criticize the Catholic Church and it aint got nothing to do with me having a personal gripe... although I did go to catechism.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now what about a religion and Church that values doing good? Is it altruistic for people who believe in that God to do good? Are they not acting within a framework of belief that'll reward them for doing good?

This old canard? If God so loved his followers here on earth, look at what happened to the Jews. Our reward is in heaven, not on earth. Suffering is a large part of our duty here. Part of that is to help others where you can by sacrificing yourself.

Didn't Jesus suffer in exchange for some role in "Heaven"?

He is God. What role is bigger than this?

How about the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect others? Who made the greater sacrifice?

Christ, because his substitutionary sacrifice served as propitiation for the sins of all.

I dont see how we can detach the selfish self from selflessness.

Most regard acts contrary to self-interest and one's own wellbeing for the benefit of others as altruistic. If someone gives an anonymous charitable donation, I am unsure how that would be perceived as self-interested. Sure, doing good and helping others might make you feel good, but so is a blowjob.

If some "deity" would heal all disease and end suffering in exchange for one life (ignore the illogic), wouldn't plenty of people offer to take the deal?

If it meant sacrificing their own life?

[Berzerker]

This old canard? If God so loved his followers here on earth, look at what happened to the Jews. Our reward is in heaven, not on earth. Suffering is a large part of our duty here. Part of that is to help others where you can by sacrificing yourself.

Why is it a canard? You just said your reward is in Heaven, how does that make you altruistic? It doesn't, you behave based on the belief you will be given something worth even more than your sacrifice.

He is God. What role is bigger than this?

Christ, because his substitutionary sacrifice served as propitiation for the sins of all.

"God" didn't sacrifice his life, the soldier did. And for whatever sacrifice Jesus did make, he was rewarded. Why is that altruistic?

Most regard acts contrary to self-interest and one's own wellbeing for the benefit of others as altruistic. If someone gives an anonymous charitable donation, I am unsure how that would be perceived as self-interested. Sure, doing good and helping others might make you feel good, but so is a blowjob.

It aint altruistic if the giver is or believes they will be rewarded.

If it meant sacrificing their own life?

Yes

[Ben Kenobi]

Why is it a canard? You just said your reward is in Heaven

In the sense that I will know I get to heaven just by doing something. I know I cannot live by the Law. Christians know this.

you behave based on the belief you will be given something worth even more than your sacrifice.

If I could earn my righteousness, I would not get to heaven, because the standard is not simply good deeds, but Christ himself.

"God" didn't sacrifice his life

1. Jesus Christ is God.
2. Jesus Christ died on the cross.

It aint altruistic if the giver is or believes they will be rewarded.

How will someone who donates anonymously be rewarded for their actions?

[kentonio]

So god is dead then?

[Ben Kenobi]

So god is dead then?

He got better.

[kentonio]

Bit of a **** 'sacrifice' then if its just like losing a life on Call of Duty.

[Berzerker]

In the sense that I will know I get to heaven just by doing something. I know I cannot live by the Law. Christians know this.

If I could earn my righteousness, I would not get to heaven, because the standard is not simply good deeds, but Christ himself.

So not helping others still gets you into Heaven? Didn't Jesus say something about storing up riches in Heaven rather than Earth? Didn't he offer that advice about deeds? Do good (and do so anonymously) and He who is in Heaven will reward you. No Ben, Christians are not being altruistic when they do good, they are storing up riches awaiting them in Heaven.

1. Jesus Christ is God.
2. Jesus Christ died on the cross.

But he didn't die, he resurrected himself, right?

How will someone who donates anonymously be rewarded for their actions?

Jesus said they will be rewarded in Heaven

[Berzerker]

Bit of a **** 'sacrifice' then if its just like losing a life on Call of Duty.

exactly, an atheist sacrificing their life is far more impressive

[Ben Kenobi]

Bit of a **** 'sacrifice' then if its just like losing a life on Call of Duty

Is there something that would be more valuable than the life of God himself?

[Ben Kenobi]

exactly, an atheist sacrificing their life is far more impressive

Uh, You believe that the life of an atheist is as valuable as God? Really? That makes no sense to me. If Jesus wasn't God, then there's nothing separating him from the Atheist.

[Ben Kenobi]

So not helping others still gets you into Heaven?

Again, the standard is Christ himself. Helping people without accepting Christ means nothing. It won't save you because good deeds are not balanced by evil ones.

Didn't Jesus say something about storing up riches in Heaven rather than Earth?

Yes, because where your treasure is there your heart is also. Do not store up treasures on earth because they are ephemeral. They will vanish. Only God.

Didn't he offer that advice about deeds? Do good (and do so anonymously) and He who is in Heaven will reward you.

Where does Christ say that good deeds will save you? They will not.

No Ben, Christians are not being altruistic when they do good, they are storing up riches awaiting them in Heaven.

I challenge you given a video of two men performing the same act to distinguish which one is the Christian and which one is not.

But he didn't die

He DID die. He died on the cross and was buried.

he resurrected himself, right?

Yes, He did.

John 10:18

"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again."

Jesus said they will be rewarded in Heaven

He who does the will of my father in Heaven... This includes faith in Christ. Good deeds will not save you.

[kentonio]

So while Jesus was 'dead' there was no god?

[Elok]

Here is an article by a Catholic who is not totally insane, describing how this situation has been grossly exaggerated by the media.

[Ben Kenobi]

this situation has been grossly exaggerated by the media.

Captain obvious to the rescue!