Supreme Court rules in favor of public legislative prayers

[Imran Siddiqui]

In some places (including British Columbia), you will get arrested for it.

While I don't agree with them fully, I fully defend their right to challenge the authority of B.C. based on their view of what God demands.

[Ben Kenobi]

Where'd I say the Declaration of Independence establishes religion?

That's the whole topic of this thread, isn't it? You were opposed to public legislative prayers, and the declaration offers two references to God.

Jefferson wasn't telling children to swear allegiance to his god

Is this before or after he argues that God is the source of our natural rights?

The Old Testament shows God is against our natural rights

Oh ho ho. Finally. I was waiting for this.

Where does the OT show that God is against our Natural rights.

I didn't ask where Aquinas says it, I asked where Jesus said it.

Read the link, get back to me.

Where does the Constitution say anything about parents? And if parents have that right, why are you claiming the state has the power to coerce their children into swearing allegiance to the state's god?

Last I checked homeschooling is still legal. If you want to teach your children at home - you are permitted to exercise that right. Then you'll never have to say the pledge, etc.

[The Mad Monk]

Disputing an action or law on the basis of a higher law isn't challenging the authority of the law giver? This is an interesting world you live in.

Yes, yes it is.

Aside from that, "basis of a higher law"? I'm speaking of civil disobedience in and of itself -- or are atheists barred from using it?

Taking the a disputation of a law as challenging the authority of the lawgiver is more Hobbesian than i am willing to go.

[Ben Kenobi]

While I don't agree with them fully, I fully defend their right to challenge the authority of B.C. based on their view of what God demands.

Ok. I came very close to being arrested myself. Was in technical violation of the law there several times. I think the law is silly. If clinic workers were to walk out they would be allowed to picket the clinic.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Aside from that, "basis of a higher law"? I'm speaking of civil disobedience in and of itself -- or are atheists barred from using it?

You don't think atheists call upon a higher law (while they disagree on what that higher law actually is).

[The Mad Monk]

I guess it's in how you define "higher law". To me that reads as "God given", though I would think that any claims to "Natural Law", in the philosophical sense, are almost as bad to an atheist. It anthropomorphizes nature, after all.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

I think that's fairly well put. Especially the last part - Christian citizenship in the temporal is animated by the requirements of the Kingdom. As I recently read "Living Biblically is living politically".

This life is temporary, you know? I think Jesus was saying to go along with Ceasar to get along, and take responsibility for our own souls, as that is an Eternal matter. According to the Great Commission, we are far from absolved from responsibility for spreading the Word, but we to be in the world not of it. -So I suspect getting entangled in Ceasar's temporal politics is giving to Ceasar what is God's - our time, our passion and our money (after taxes).

Jesus preached; he did not involve himself in the politics of his time, much as he railed against the upper Sadducee priesthood and lower Pharisee priesthood establishment. Never a word about Ceasar and his enslavement of God's Chosen People. That's temporal and temporary, while the priests enslaved innocent souls. We are indeed obligated to preach, and we are obligated to teach against sin - however, to involve ourselves into attempting to change Ceasar's sinful temporal law? That takes time (passion, money) away from preaching and teaching, when the real battle to be won is in people's hearts.

[Lorizael]

You don't think atheists call upon a higher law (while they disagree on what that higher law actually is).

Only the stupid ones. The smart ones join my cult after finally realizing there is no higher law, period (that we can know), and the only answer is to consume the universe.

[Imran Siddiqui]

This life is temporary, you know? I think Jesus was saying to go along with Ceasar to get along, and take responsibility for our own souls, as that is an Eternal matter. According to the Great Commission, we are far from absolved from responsibility for spreading the Word, but we to be in the world not of it. -So I suspect getting entangled in Ceasar's temporal politics is giving to Ceasar what is God's - our time, our passion and our money (after taxes).

Jesus preached; he did not involve himself in the politics of his time, much as he railed against the upper Sadducee priesthood and lower Pharisee priesthood establishment. Never a word about Ceasar and his enslavement of God's Chosen People. That's temporal and temporary, while the priests enslaved innocent souls. We are indeed obligated to preach, and we are obligated to teach against sin - however, to involve ourselves into attempting to change Ceasar's sinful temporal law? That takes time (passion, money) away from preaching and teaching, when the real battle to be won is in people's hearts.

Jesus was never in the soul counting business. He was calling on us to be people of the Kingdom of God. Laws that enslave people are contrary to God's wishes - therefore, ending slavery does not take time away from doing Kingdom work, it enhances it. Yes, in the end, Heaven and Earth will be reborn and a New Heaven and a New Earth will arise and we shall all be physically resurrected, but before then, what work are we doing for the Kingdom? How are we doing God's work? How are we loving our neighbors? Sometimes loving your neighbor as yourself means you don't want them subjected to unjust laws. Martin Luther King, Jr. was doing God's work when he challenged the temporal work that kept people in bondage. Exodus doesn't end with Moses and Jesus, it continues.

[Berzerker]

I'm not sure how you interpret the discussion with Pilate where Christ affirms that Pilate is the divinely appointed authority of the realm.

Jesus got in trouble with the Romans for claiming to be king of the Jews.

That's the whole topic of this thread, isn't it? You were opposed to public legislative prayers, and the declaration offers two references to God.

A reference to God is not a legislative prayer and you raised the Declaration of Independence, not me, not the OP, not anybody else. I said the Pledge of Allegiance violates the establishment clause and you said it didn't because the Declaration of Independence is taught in schools.

Is this before or after he argues that God is the source of our natural rights?

Neither, Jefferson didn't tell other people's children to swear allegiance to his God.

Oh ho ho. Finally. I was waiting for this.

Where does the OT show that God is against our Natural rights.

The 10 Commandments for starters, no other God before him, no graven images, respecting the folks, no adultery, no coveting, no laboring on the Sabbath. And then we can get into all the other laws, like diet and cleanliness.

Read the link, get back to me.

No thanks, if you cant quote Jesus to support your position it aint my job to look for your evidence.

Last I checked homeschooling is still legal. If you want to teach your children at home - you are permitted to exercise that right. Then you'll never have to say the pledge, etc.

Where is any of that in the Constitution and why are you talking about homeschooling when we're talking about the Pledge in public schools? Second, if you are "permitted" it aint a right. And if parents have the right to not have their children recite the Pledge, why do they lose that right when teachers coerce their kids into swearing allegiance to the state's god?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Jesus was never in the soul counting business. He was calling on us to be people of the Kingdom of God. Laws that enslave people are contrary to God's wishes - therefore, ending slavery does not take time away from doing Kingdom work, it enhances it. Yes, in the end, Heaven and Earth will be reborn and a New Heaven and a New Earth will arise and we shall all be physically resurrected, but before then, what work are we doing for the Kingdom? How are we doing God's work? How are we loving our neighbors? Sometimes loving your neighbor as yourself means you don't want them subjected to unjust laws. Martin Luther King, Jr. was doing God's work when he challenged the temporal work that kept people in bondage. Exodus doesn't end with Moses and Jesus, it continues.

I acknowledge the truth you articulate so well here without feeling myself refuted. You definitely have a point, indeed are correct.

Still, the battle is for hearts, minds, and souls, not Cesar's "justice". Justice is not in this imperfect world.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus got in trouble with the Romans for claiming to be king of the Jews.

You need to reread your bible. He never claimed to be the King of the Jews. The Jews claimed he claimed this when they went to Pilate. They even complained to Pilate when he wrote, "King of the Jews", and they wanted him to put, "he claimed to be King of the Jews". Pilate even said, "what I have written I have written."

A reference to God is not a legislative prayer

The establishment clause doesn't differ between the two. Both are appropriate.

I said the Pledge of Allegiance violates the establishment clause

And the establishment clause says otherwise. It may be your legal opinion but it's not supported.

and you said it didn't because the Declaration of Independence is taught in schools.

Both are taught in schools, both are legitimate topics of an American civics class. The only reason you're opposed to it is because this is a religious dispute for you, nothing more or less. It's got nothing to do with the establishment clause or anything. If it said, allah, you'd be fine with it.

The 10 Commandments for starters, no other God before him, no graven images, respecting the folks, no adultery, no coveting, no laboring on the Sabbath. And then we can get into all the other laws, like diet and cleanliness.

Ok. So you think that 'do not murder' is contra to our natural right to life? That 'do not steal', is contra to our freedom to own private property? Honor your father and mother is contra our recognition of mothers and fathers and the natural family?

I don't see it. The ten commandments is an affirmation of our natural rights.

No thanks, if you cant quote Jesus to support your position it aint my job to look for your evidence.

It is your job to look at my evidence. If you can't be bothered to read what I write then I see no point in replying further.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus was never in the soul counting business.

Uh, Jesus and Dr. King would say that the foremost way to enter heaven is to follow the two greatest commandments, loving God and loving your neighbor. You'd do better if you stuck to their formula,

[Imran Siddiqui]

I acknowledge the truth you articulate so well here without feeling myself refuted. You definitely have a point, indeed are correct.

Still, the battle is for hearts, minds, and souls, not Cesar's "justice". Justice is not in this imperfect world.

Though justice can be realized. Ultimate justice is, yes, though God. But we can stand against injustice, as it is what Jesus did and He implores us to follow His lead.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Yes.

What I'm suggesting is that more good is done for souls to persude them from sin than to persuade Cesar to coerce them from sin. Sin is bad, m'kay?