Supreme Court rules in favor of public legislative prayers

[Kidlicious]

Jesus driving out the moneychangers demonstrates his authority in the Temple. The key is that He had authority as the Son of God.

[kentonio]

Jesus said many things that might be taken as pacifistic, but might also be taken as expression of love and tolerance. He certainly didn't have any problem driving the moneychangers out of the temple, and did say his second coming would be one of judgement, which suggests his attitude was not one of pacifism but one of forebearance. He also said render unto Caesar, which suggests his lack of resistance was not due to pacifism, but due to his recognition of the Roman governor being the legitimate civil authority.

Jesus is God right? Him clearing moneylenders from the temple is therefore god clearing moneylenders from the temple. His second coming is therefore gods judgement. He makes it abundantly clear at all times that judgement is gods sole preserve, not mans. He tells man to turn the other cheek and leave the judgement to god.

I really don't know how much clearer it could have been unless he'd written 'DON'T BE ****ING ****S TO EACH OTHER' in 100 foot high letters in a mountainside somewhere..

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Someone should make a .gif of that...

[DinoDoc]

Yes.

You've yet to demonstrate any evidence for that claim.

[Berzerker]

Given as the preamble has two references to God, I cannot see how one can argue that the Declaration supports the interpretation that references to God qualify as 'establishment of religion'.

Where'd I say the Declaration of Independence establishes religion?

And given as Jefferson wrote prayers to God where appropriate in the preamble, I see no justification for the removal of similar prayers in the pledge. Checkmate.

Jefferson wasn't telling children to swear allegiance to his god

Removing God in the pledge implies that God is against our natural rights

The Old Testament shows God is against our natural rights

Good question. Where does Jesus mention natural rights? You're gonna have to get out the Summa.

This is a good place to start. Aquinas says it better than I ever could.

I didn't ask where Aquinas says it, I asked where Jesus said it.

So you're ok with swearing allegiance to the flag, an inanimate object and not to God?

If you're ok with pledging allegiance to the flag, then I see no reason why you would have issues with pledging allegiance to God.

I'm not okay with it

The constitution protects the rights of parents to ensure that their children get an education in their faith, ergo, it permits schools, in loco parentae to do the same.

Where does the Constitution say anything about parents? And if parents have that right, why are you claiming the state has the power to coerce their children into swearing allegiance to the state's god? And you still didn't explain how this relates to what I said.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He also said render unto Caesar, which suggests his lack of resistance was not due to pacifism, but due to his recognition of the Roman governor being the legitimate civil authority.

Aroo? Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's. What belongs to God? If you answered all that He created, then you are correct.

You'll note the coin had Caesar's face on it - can we recall what the 1st Commandment says about graven images?

[Fake Boris]

He also said render unto Caesar, which suggests his lack of resistance was not due to pacifism, but due to his recognition of the Roman governor being the legitimate civil authority.

Coins are property of the State is more in line with what he meant to say.

[The Mad Monk]

God has given men authority to to lord it over other men, and Jesus was certainly speaking in this context.

Graven images refers to objects of worship, unless you are against all art -- including that stained glass cross of yours.

Also, 2nd Commandment, I'm Reformed, not Lutheran.

[Imran Siddiqui]

God has, at best, leased authority. He is the one in charge and all things belong to Him.

In the Jewish faith, all graven images were forbidden (as they are in Islam as well), including art. Christianity has changed this somewhat, though I think its because the Ten Commandments are considered superseded by the Two Great Commandments of Jesus.

[The Mad Monk]

I've read about 90% of Leviathan. It's...um...

[kentonio]

You've yet to demonstrate any evidence for that claim.

I can't help it if you're too stupid to understand a book that makes no attempts to hide it's incredibly obvious message.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I've read about 90% of Leviathan. It's...um...

Agreed... as Hobbes makes the point that religious authority is subordinate to civil authority and my view is quite the reverse.

[The Mad Monk]

Leased authority is still authority, and and Jesus was being quite clear about who had the civil authority at that time.

As Paul wrote in Romans,

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

[Berzerker]

so the govt that killed Jesus had God's blessing

why does Jesus ask God to forgive his executioners for they knew not what they were doing?

[Imran Siddiqui]

so the govt that killed Jesus had God's blessing

That kind of gets lost in the assertion that Rome had God's blessing, hence they were doing God's work .

Though Reformed Christians love to speak of God's sovereignty in such ways that it makes no sense in other areas .