I think I'm beginning to understand Russia a little

[Ben Kenobi]

Communism would have more gradually gotten worse and public health measures would not have hit the toilet - but also wouldn't have seen the post 2000 gains.

Change was inevitable at that point. Russia's still got big problems.

are completely worthless and then on the other hand claim to know that they were devoting a fifth of their economy to military spending.

Sure you can. Say I report that I produce 2500 widgets but I only made 1000 widgets. Say I also report building 5000 doohickeys, but I only made 2000 doohickeys. Doohickey/widget ratio remains unchanged.

[Elok]

I wasn't trying to say that Russia should have stayed commie, or that democracy was bad for it, or anything. I'm just saying, considering what I've read of their actual experiences, their attitude towards the West makes sense from their perspective. Putin is a creep, but I can see why they would feel that way. Centuries of being looked down on by Euros, followed by decades of horrible misery caused by adopting a certain terrible European idea, and now that they've finally clawed their way back up to something that looks almost healthy and stable, we scold them for not having the kind of society you get after a century or two of functioning liberal democracy. I'd be pissed too.

[Elok]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the years of Yeltsin were worse than they would have been had communism continued. The entire country was already collapsing when he took power. It just wasn't clear exactly how bad it was until the communist system was dismantled.

I know nothing of all this, said nothing about what would have been. But I have read, from multiple sources, that Russians had a horrible, horrible time of it in the nineties, and most people there seem to blame it on the abrupt, sloppy transition to capitalist democracy. Right or wrong, that's the impression they got.

[Kidlicious]

Putin is right about Obama. More people should listen to him.

[Dr Strangelove]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the years of Yeltsin were worse than they would have been had communism continued. The entire country was already collapsing when he took power. It just wasn't clear exactly how bad it was until the communist system was dismantled.

The death rate increased by 1 million lives / year after 1991. If Yeltsin had been a Communist we'd all be talking about the great Red genocide of the 1990's. Someone would write a book about it and would be awarded a Nobel prize before the first copy left the presses. There would be threads here on 'poly discussing whether Yeltsin was worse than Stalin and Hitler.

[Hauldren Collider]

You'd have to be a complete moron 1 million/year to stalin and hitler's death rate.

[Ban Kenobi]

Stalin's death rate for Russia alone may well be under a million a year.

[regexcellent]

I'm pretty damn sure it was over 1 million a year, but the country also had a lot fewer people then.

The Soviet Union lost more than 20 million people in WW2, and Stalin was in power for about 30 years.

[onodera]

At least during Yeltsin's years they weren't blowing 20%, yes that's 1/5th of their whole economy on soldiers and weapons.

Isn't US military spending around 20% of their federal budget as well?

[Elok]

He's talking about 20% of GDP (I think), not of their budget. Very different figure.

[Elok]

Those soldiers and industries losing their work were not producing anything useful for the economy. Employment is not what creates a strong economy. Creating jobs doesn't create wealth. They were a drag on the economy and forcing them to find new jobs was a really ****ing good thing.

Wait, did you just call the M-I Complex a drag on the economy? Is that true for our soldiers (and supporting industry) as well?

[Kidlicious]

He's talking about 20% of GDP (I think), not of their budget. Very different figure.

In communist Russia gdp is the budget

[Sava]

in soviet russia, GDP budgets YOU!

[regexcellent]

Wait, did you just call the M-I Complex a drag on the economy? Is that true for our soldiers (and supporting industry) as well?

Yes of course it is, but ours was never as big (as a proportion of gdp)

[Elok]

So, if we cut our army too, that would be a good thing, economically? Aren't you ROTC? Trying to wrap my head around this here . . .