I think I'm beginning to understand Russia a little

[Elok]

Been reading a bit on Russia--not much, the local library doesn't have a decently-written Russian history. The only one I could find began with this dry, meandering discourse on the Character of the Slavic Peoples. Anyway, a summary of what I have learned:

PETER THE GREAT: Why don't you shave, you sad sacks of crap? You're embarrassing me. Clean up, get it together. Pretend you come from a normal, non-retarded country, like France.
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: What is this 'France'?
(decades pass)
CATHERINE THE GREAT: While I, too, am deeply disappointed by your pitiful backwardness as a people, I know you're too dysfunctional to get it together, so why scold you? We'll do some little baby steps, maybe you'll be less terrible by the time I die. Meanwhile, I'll collect a lot of foreign art and write wistful letters to Voltaire.
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: We're sorry, George. Please tell us about the rabbits.
(decades pass)
DOSTOYEVSKY: Western ideas are a poison to the Russian soul!
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: Your ideas are intriguing.
(decades pass)
LENIN: Look! It's an exciting, scientifically proven Western idea to lift Russia from her backwardness!
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: Well, it can't be much worse than the Tsar, so . . . oh. Ohhhhh, crap.
(decades pass)
YELTSIN: Look! It's an even better Western idea! Let's implement it as quickly as possible; no need for planning or outside support, it's so awesome!
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: Hey, this one actually looks pretty good--oh. Oh no. Oh, bozhemoi, no. Nononono oooh hell it's even worse. How? How can it be worse than the last one?
(decades pass)
PUTIN: I am the Tsar! Surrender your liberties!
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: Well, this sucks. But less. This definitely sucks less. We can work with this, I think--
THE WEST: For shame!
RUSSIAN PEOPLE: Oh, **** off, you.

Is that about the shape of it? Onodera?

[Guynemer]

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the years of Yeltsin were worse than they would have been had communism continued. The entire country was already collapsing when he took power. It just wasn't clear exactly how bad it was until the communist system was dismantled.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Russia in the 1990s was a very frightening place:





The shock therapy basically created a Great Depression until they could figure things out. It's one of the reasons Putin is so beloved - a lot of Russians believe that he took them out of the horrors of the 1990s.

[Kidlicious]

[Hauldren Collider]

Russia in the 1990s was a very frightening place:





The shock therapy basically created a Great Depression until they could figure things out. It's one of the reasons Putin is so beloved - a lot of Russians believe that he took them out of the horrors of the 1990s.

You misunderstand. The 90s in russia sucked, yes, but we don't know the alternative of how much they would have sucked if they'd kept on trucking with communism. I hypothesize that it would have been even worse.

[regexcellent]

Economic statistics from the Soviet Union era were outright fabricated, don't even try to rely on them. And for that matter they would include parts of the USSR that were wealthier actually wealthier than the RSFSR, notably Ukraine.

At least during Yeltsin's years they weren't blowing 20%, yes that's 1/5th of their whole economy on soldiers and weapons.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Considering the economy dropped the way it did, and the drop in public health numbers (life expectancy, infectious disease), as well as inequality skyrocketing upwards, I doubt it. Communism would have more gradually gotten worse and public health measures would not have hit the toilet - but also wouldn't have seen the post 2000 gains.

Shock therapy was a complete failure. I mean even Yeltsin would talk about how the Soviet Union falling was a disaster in his later years.

[regexcellent]

Then why is it that the economy didn't enter a slump in any of the Baltic states, or in East Germany, or in Czechoslovakia, or in Poland? They went through the same transition.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Economic statistics from the Soviet Union era were outright fabricated, don't even try to rely on them.

So what would be the point of Russia in the 1990s fabricating Soviet statistics to show them (the Russian Fed) being much worse than they really were?

The main issue was the oligarchs gobbling up companies very quickly after opening up the economy. It basically made any attempts at a free market a joke. It's one of the reasons Putin first went after them - and it's one of the major things that Russians liked about him in the beginning.

At least during Yeltsin's years they weren't blowing 20%, yes that's 1/5th of their whole economy on soldiers and weapons.

And when that suddenly goes away, that's a lot of soldiers and industries suddenly not having work.

[regexcellent]

The people who were compiling production numbers, economic statistics, etc. in the Soviet Union were completely making **** up because it looked better for their careers. There aren't firm, un-fudged numbers from that time except western estimates.

Those soldiers and industries losing their work were not producing anything useful for the economy. Employment is not what creates a strong economy. Creating jobs doesn't create wealth. They were a drag on the economy and forcing them to find new jobs was a really ****ing good thing.

Anyway since only Russia out of a dozen+ countries entered a slump the shock therapy argument is ****ing stupid and you should be ashamed.

edit: and "slump" at best loosely describes the situation; the economy had been totally ****ing stagnant for over a decade.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You do realize that other countries did suffer slumps due to shock therapy right? I know it doesn't fit the rah-rah narrative, but its true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland

As with all other post-communist countries, Poland suffered temporary slumps in social and economic standards, but it became the first post-communist country to reach its pre-1989 GDP levels, which it achieved by 1995 largely thanks to its booming economy.[54][55]

(Poland was studied as to why this happened there first, of course) And if you don't think East Germany entered into a slump (and a drag unto West Germany)... well you don't follow German politics or economics in the slightest.

Russia had the issues of dismantling the military-industrial complex immediately just ended up with a bunch of soldiers and plant managers who weren't retrained and just thrown into an economy they didn't understand. That may be one of the reasons why alcohol related deaths shot up during the 1990s. You also had people who were up in the Soviet government being able to cash in more than those who were in the Communist governments of Eastern Europe would have - you know, they weren't considered collaborators - and who cashed in their power to purchase up companies for low amounts of money. A more gradual, Hungary style privatization would have been far smarter for Russia.

[Ban Kenobi]

You misunderstand. The 90s in russia sucked, yes, but we don't know the alternative of how much they would have sucked if they'd kept on trucking with communism. I hypothesize that it would have been even worse.

I think we can make a reasonable guess and infer that the 90s would have been better and the 00's would have been worse.

[Ban Kenobi]

Economic statistics from the Soviet Union era were outright fabricated, don't even try to rely on them. And for that matter they would include parts of the USSR that were wealthier actually wealthier than the RSFSR, notably Ukraine.

At least during Yeltsin's years they weren't blowing 20%, yes that's 1/5th of their whole economy on soldiers and weapons.

You can't, on the one hand, claim that Soviet statistics (and any other economic data for this period collected by other sources like the CIA) are completely worthless and then on the other hand claim to know that they were devoting a fifth of their economy to military spending.

[Kidlicious]

Shock therapy was a result of corruption. Big business loves shock therapy.