Do people really think that political parties deeds centuries ago matter?

[Ben Kenobi]

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 could have never succeeded if the southern states had been allowed to secede. Sorry but the United States is different from the British Empire.

Why would they have seceded, when they got everything they wanted by 1872, as is? Black people were no freer in the South before as after. Grant tried to change that and found that the situation had actually worsened from a decade earlier.

All the civil war did was embitter the South for generations - ordinary folks who lost homes and families - that might otherwise have been persuaded of the righteous cause of emancipation were convicted that the North did not have their best interests at heart. Most didn't own slaves, but many of these folks were the folks that bore the brunt of the Civil War, losing everything.

[Ben Kenobi]

If the South had successfully seceded then slavery probably would not have lasted more than another 20 years and the following hundred years of racial hatred and animosity might have never been.

Lee + Davis had already signed off on conscription for black men. Emancipation would have quickly followed. The South on her own could not afford slavery, but the Civil War hardened and entrenched attitudes that were already fading.

[giblets]

At least in 1872 black people could come and go as they pleased without being hunted down, brought back to the plantation and beaten. Something they could not have gotten without federal interference.

[PLATO]

All the civil war did was embitter the South for generations - ordinary folks who lost homes and families - that might otherwise have been persuaded of the righteous cause of emancipation were convicted that the North did not have their best interests at heart. Most didn't own slaves, but many of these folks were the folks that bore the brunt of the Civil War, losing everything.

There are still so many that are still bitter. I remember my Grandmother passing on stories from her mother about the brutality of the northern troops...the rapes, firing of homes, summary shootings. My family was affected by these things and I am very bitter. The maddest I have been in a while was right here on Poly when someone had the nerve to tell me that they deserved it. (/me says that knowing I am about to get trolled.... )

[giblets]

If the South had successfully seceded then slavery probably would not have lasted more than another 20 years and the following hundred years of racial hatred and animosity might have never been. Who knows? The really sad thing is that so many who had no slaves suffered so horribly under the advance of brutal and vengeful soldiers. Sometimes it is easy to see why the U.S. is so hated by so many....

Yes, it certainly is sad. But I'm not optimistic about the prospects for racial equality in the Confederacy.

[PLATO]

At least in 1872 black people could come and go as they pleased without being hunted down, brought back to the plantation and beaten. Something they could not have gotten without federal interference.

Do you really believe that share croppers in 1872 weren't hunted down, brought back to the farm, and beaten?

[PLATO]

Yes, it certainly is sad. But I'm not optimistic about the prospects for racial equality in the Confederacy.

Based on the history we have, it would be hard to argue, but one cannot tell what the history we don't have could have been.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not sure that I agree with this, but it certainly lowered the standard of living for all in the South (with the obvious exception of the slaves living in deplorable conditions) for 100 years. Many parts of the South did not see the level of 1860 economic activity until nearly 1970. A devastating and totally avoidable war fought for one terrible reason and many good political ones.

Being a non-native - the South still hasn't recovered. Texas is the only southern state that has crossed the median income levels of the United States as a whole. I love the South, but the Civil war left absolute devastation, that is only, slowly, beginning to be recovered, and only in certain areas that are doing well, and only, partially, because the Rust Belt is doing so terrible. It makes me sad. So many wonderful folks down here... I can see why folks fall in love with the place.

[giblets]

Do you really believe that share croppers in 1872 weren't hunted down, brought back to the farm, and beaten?

What evidence is there that this happened?

[pchang]

Ben is the only one who could take -
The Civil Rights Act was championed by 2 Democratic Presidents (Kennedy and Johnson)
A majority of Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act
And turn it into
Democrats opposed the Civil Rights Act

[PLATO]

What evidence is there that this happened?

Wow...I don't have a source. Down here everybody just knows this. I come from an old family...all of my grandparents were born in the 1800's (one in 1883 and his father fought in the war of northern aggression). I grew up hearing unbelievable stories by today's standards. Blacks had very little economic opportunity and all the money was still controlled by whites. Even now, that is mostly the case...treatment like that is no longer tolerated though (Thank Goodness!).

Two stories I heard that have always stuck with me: One was the hanging of a black man after he had supposedly tried to make a pass at a white girl. He was a laborer on a large traveling construction crew. The white supervisors caught hi, beat him, and hung him. It apparently got no notice from anyone. The second is from the same construction gang where one of the white supervisors used to like to make the blacks "dance" by firing bullets at their feet. Slavery simply took a different, and in some cases darker, turn after the war. In many ways, it really didn't start to end until the Civil Rights Act.

[MRT144]

Ben is the only one who could take -
The Civil Rights Act was championed by 2 Democratic Presidents (Kennedy and Johnson)
A majority of Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act
And turn it into
Democrats opposed the Civil Rights Act

Intellectual dishonesty is the language he weaves his ideas in. Are you surprised he thinks about things in such stupid ways?

[-Jrabbit]

[PLATO]

Ben is the only one who could take -
The Civil Rights Act was championed by 2 Democratic Presidents (Kennedy and Johnson)
A majority of Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act
And turn it into
Democrats opposed the Civil Rights Act

There certainly were more democrats against it than Republicans...but in many ways the parties have reversed their views in today's world.

By party[edit]

The original House version:[17]
Democratic Party: 152–96 (61–39%)
Republican Party: 138–34 (80–20%)

Cloture in the Senate:[18]
Democratic Party: 44–23 (66–34%)
Republican Party: 27–6 (82–18%)

The Senate version:[17]
Democratic Party: 46–21 (69–31%)
Republican Party: 27–6 (82–18%)

The Senate version, voted on by the House:[17]
Democratic Party: 153–91 (63–37%)
Republican Party: 136–35 (80–20%)

[Dinner]

Ben's a ****ing ****** anyway

Note: "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.
The original House version:

• Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7–93%)
• Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0–100%)

• Northern Democrats: 145–9 (94–6%)
• Northern Republicans: 138–24 (85–15%)

The Senate version:

• Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5–95%) (only Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor)
• Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0–100%) (John Tower of Texas)
• Northern Democrats: 45–1 (98–2%) (only Robert Byrd of West Virginia voted against)
• Northern Republicans: 27–5 (84–16%)

Indeed. The break down always has been conservatives voted against it and liberals voted for it. Conservatives are always on the wrong side of history. Always.