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Do people really think that political parties deeds centuries ago matter?
If the South had successfully seceded then slavery probably would not have lasted more than another 20 years and the following hundred years of racial hatred and animosity might have never been. Who knows? The really sad thing is that so many who had no slaves suffered so horribly under the advance of brutal and vengeful soldiers. Sometimes it is easy to see why the U.S. is so hated by so many....
Five years is the time I most often see. In other words, we lost millions of lives (looking to the future) due to 4 years of war.
One more year of peace and it would have passed. Not much of a good deal.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
Five years is the time I most often see. In other words, we lost millions of lives (looking to the future) due to 4 years of war.
One more year of peace and it would have passed. Not much of a good deal.
Don't be silly. If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully they would have abolished slavery in 1862, at the latest, and everyone would hold hands and sing songs and live happily ever after.
I'm not talking about seceding, FFS. I'm talking about negotiation.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
Five years is the time I most often see. In other words, we lost millions of lives (looking to the future) due to 4 years of war.
One more year of peace and it would have passed. Not much of a good deal.
Sorry but that's pretty ridiculous. Nothing about the attitudes of the slave power side at the time suggested they had any interest whatsoever in giving up slavery, and the idea that they'd have done so within 5 years is just nonsensical. They were willing to tear America in two over the issue and start a war that killed a million Americans in the process.
They were ****ing traitors fighting for the right to treat other human beings like cattle. Shedding tears for the Confederacy is on a par with shedding tears for the ****ing Nazis.
The "Thanks" is for reminding me not to discuss with dumbasses. Thanks!
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
They were ****ing traitors fighting for the right to treat other human beings like cattle. Shedding tears for the Confederacy is on a par with shedding tears for the ****ing Nazis.
On the surface, you seem to be describing the situation as many in the world see it. As is usual for these type things, the true story is much different.
Let's start with traitors...in 1860 it was certainly debatable about weather a State could leave the union or not. The interpretation of every Southern legislature was that they could. Once they did so, then the fighters became Patriots in much the same way the Continental Army were patriots less than 85 years before. Not to mention, at this time, many citizens were more loyal to their State than the union anyway...and that held true in the union States as well.
There is no "right" in treating people like cattle. That is indefensible as was slavery. There were different views on this matter, but even in 1860 the South was actively debating how to rid itself of the economic dependence that it had on slavery. The truth is, however, that most of the people who faught did not fight "for slavery", they fought for their country, their State, their homes, and their families.
As far as "Shedding tears", I will assume that you are speaking of the Confederate government and the nazi government...not the citizens of those countries.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
On the surface, you seem to be describing the situation as many in the world see it. As is usual for these type things, the true story is much different.
Let's start with traitors...in 1860 it was certainly debatable about weather a State could leave the union or not. The interpretation of every Southern legislature was that they could. Once they did so, then the fighters became Patriots in much the same way the Continental Army were patriots less than 85 years before. Not to mention, at this time, many citizens were more loyal to their State than the union anyway...and that held true in the union States as well.
Only a fool would claim that all the soldiers and officers of the south were fighting solely for slavery (or even that it was a major motivation for many of them) but that doesn't give them some kind of get out of jail free card. The major dividing line across America at that point was Slave Power/Republicanism and it wasn't solely (or perhaps even chiefly) even to do with the welfare of black Americans, but rather a fight over the future and direction of the US. The strength of the south however was built on the backs of slaves, and support for the confederacy was unequivocally an acknowledgement of support for the right to continue slavery. If you fought alongside the Nazis in the 40's but insisted that your motivations were purely anti-Soviet and that you had no anti-Semitic feelings, would that give you a moral free pass?
There is no "right" in treating people like cattle. That is indefensible as was slavery.
Yet even after a murderous defeat that left most of the South in ruins, the South was unable to stop itself continuing to oppress black Americans for another century. A lasting hatred of the North would be logical, but the hate and fear towards the blacks ran so deep that the idea of any sort of equality of human rights was just inconceivable to them.
As far as "Shedding tears", I will assume that you are speaking of the Confederate government and the nazi government...not the citizens of those countries.
In every war the normal people on the ground are pretty much without exception the ones who have little or no say in events but suffer the bulk of the ensuing horror and destruction, and that largely goes for the rank and file soldiers as well as the citizens. Especially when armies are formed from large numbers of conscripts of course.
Despite that however, no the citizens don't get a free moral pass. The slave culture of the South was not solely a small group of rich slaveholders, it was part of the widespread culture which is what allowed it to continue for as long as it did. Who do you think it was exactly who was voting those slavery defending politicians into power exactly election after election? The perceived superiority of the white race was so deeply ingrained in that culture that even a 150 years later it still remains in some parts of the South.
Perhaps your ancestors were the unusual exception and genuinely didn't support the slave based society, but if so they were in the tiny minority. Either way, none of it reflects on you or your living relatives. Trying to make out as if much of the south was innocent of complicity in slavery however is simply untrue and does a real disservice to the millions who suffered horrifically under it's yolk.
Ask yourself this, when you talk about the beatings and rapes and murders that happened as the North swept across the South at the end of the war: how do you think that would feel to the blacks who had been suffering exactly those atrocities for a century all across the South? Who didn't have the right to a vote to change things like the southerners did to end reconstruction and who then had to spend another century being treated like filth, and watching their families and friends being tortured, raped and murdered without consequence across the south?
This is silly. Do you think the Southern army was "good"? Pretty much every army up to the end of WWI consisted mostly of uneducated, conscripted, men who were used as cannon fodder and who didn't care about the underlying cause of the war. The south knew what the cost of failure would be if they lost.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Originally posted by Captain ******* KirkView Post
I honestly don't get this thread; Jim Crow wasn't that long ago in the greater scheme of things. You're better than this, MRT.
Anything that predates my birth is irrelevant to current politics. Ideas, parties, people...
Seriously though, I wanted to know who these idiots were, and maybe all you funny guys can come up with rationales for why it happens. I dont know why anyone would reference this ****.
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
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