Republicans have once again demonstrated that they are the party...

[MikeH]

BTW we don't really have Kool Aid in Europe, outside of places near US military bases, because it's disgusting.

[PLATO]

Medicare is the entire reason healthcare is so much of our economy. And it's also the entire reason why healthcare is so expensive.

And now we have more government subsidies coming with Obamacare. Somebody from the Democratic party needs to be a grown up and decide how to make these things sustainable.

[kentonio]

I am not arguing against socialized systems. I am arguing against unsustainable systems.

Yet you don't look beyond those systems to the cost of not having them in the first place. Are you honestly arguing for efficiency or just that systems you can't 'afford' should be cut? because if its the latter, then you're engaging in short term thinking, because everything has a long term price. If you don't have unemployment systems, then you have rampant poverty, if you don't have healthcare systems you end up with lots of dead and dying people. You have to deal with that stuff somewhere, and the free market is a terrible place to do it because sometimes it's simply an exercise in spending money so you don't have to spend a lot more later.

Where do you think the economic collapse started? Let's not look to hard at just the U.S. on that one. HSBC and Credit Suisse had two of the largest hits to them of any financial institutions in the world. It is obviously not just the U.S. "lack of regulatory environment", but an entire economic mindset.

An economic mindset of corporations lobbying their way out of decent regulation and going on an insane gambling spree. Yep, I'll stand right next to you in protest against that one.

I hate to say it, but Clinton was the last President who had a clue about the budget. In 2000 the deficiet was $5,6 Trillion. Today it is over $16 Trillion. No fool should think this does not need addressing and addressing right NOW!

No, not right now, and that's why the conservatives are being stupid. Let the economy recover and then cut back when you've got some breathing room to cut back without slashing essential services that are going to ruin peoples lives and **** your economy even further in the process.

[PLATO]

I posted a ton of stuff on it a while back showing the available data, and while you won handily on cancer care, there were clear leads for the UK in most other stuff. Then again we suck compared to some other countries, so there stuff for us all to learn from.

Once again...my issue is not with socialization of medicine (although I do have some separate issues there), but how to make it sustainable. It is the debt and continuing to borrow that puts these programs in long term danger.

[MikeH]

Also, the guy is called Boner? Makes any news story funnier.

[MikeH]

No, not right now, and that's why the conservatives are being stupid. Let the economy recover and then cut back when you've got some breathing room to cut back without slashing essential services that are going to ruin peoples lives and **** your economy even further in the process.

Can you tell this to our Government too please?

[Guynemer]

We are spending far more in our health care sector, both publicly AND privately, than any other Western democracy with socialized medicine, Plato. We're doing everything wrong.

[PLATO]

Yet you don't look beyond those systems to the cost of not having them in the first place. Are you honestly arguing for efficiency or just that systems you can't 'afford' should be cut? because if its the latter, then you're engaging in short term thinking, because everything has a long term price. If you don't have unemployment systems, then you have rampant poverty, if you don't have healthcare systems you end up with lots of dead and dying people. You have to deal with that stuff somewhere, and the free market is a terrible place to do it because sometimes it's simply an exercise in spending money so you don't have to spend a lot more later.



An economic mindset of corporations lobbying their way out of decent regulation and going on an insane gambling spree. Yep, I'll stand right next to you in protest against that one.



No, not right now, and that's why the conservatives are being stupid. Let the economy recover and then cut back when you've got some breathing room to cut back without slashing essential services that are going to ruin peoples lives and **** your economy even further in the process.

Okay...simple math. The U.S. is paying an average of about 2% interest on the debt right now. When the economy recovers, then bond yields will go up. The bulk of the money is borrower on 10 years or less. If the economy "recovers", then bond yields will rise (most likely to the mid 4's at least). As the U.S. refinances its debt, its borrowing cost on the money it has borrowed will more than double.

The last time this happened, it took high inflation to devalue the debt...but now we have the Fed with a mandate to keep inflation down. With this mandate, they will be able to do little to try and keep rates down and will in fact have to raise them...causing bond rates to rise in order for them to still be a viable investment alternative.

republicans are dead right in trying to get a plan on how to handle this now. No one is asking for a balanced budget...they are simply asking on a plan to get there.

[PLATO]

We are spending far more in our health care sector, both publicly AND privately, than any other Western democracy with socialized medicine, Plato. We're doing everything wrong.

I agree! I am not ranting against Obamacare. I am ranting about a system of unfunded mandates. While I am a fiscal conservative, I am not against tax increases where they make sense. The American people have spoken...they wanted healthcare reform. Now the question is...how do we pay for it and make it sustainable?

[kentonio]

Once again...my issue is not with socialization of medicine (although I do have some separate issues there), but how to make it sustainable. It is the debt and continuing to borrow that puts these programs in long term danger.

Yet you keep pointing at Europe as some giant failure despite our debt levels being lower than yours, and that after we've been running these systems for many decades.

Can you tell this to our Government too please?

I wish. I was dumb enough once to believe the austerity arguments, but it's hard to see it as anything other than failure now. Although to be fair we certainly did have some room for fat trimming after the Labour excesses, but as usual the conservatives have taken it way to fair. For the first time ever I'm actually considering abstaining at the next general election, and I absolutely hate that. I just don't think I can bring myself to vote for a party this out of touch.

[Guynemer]

Yet you keep pointing at Europe as some giant failure despite our debt levels being lower than yours, and that after we've been running these systems for many decades.

Massive insane Cold War (and utterly-baffling continued post-Cold War) military spending says, "Hi!"

[kentonio]

Massive insane Cold War (and utterly-baffling continued post-Cold War) military spending says, "Hi!"

Aye.

[MikeH]

I wish. I was dumb enough once to believe the austerity arguments, but it's hard to see it as anything other than failure now. Although to be fair we certainly did have some room for fat trimming after the Labour excesses, but as usual the conservatives have taken it way to fair. For the first time ever I'm actually considering abstaining at the next general election, and I absolutely hate that. I just don't think I can bring myself to vote for a party this out of touch.

I can't believe the rate they've managed to increase the deficit.

And you could vote for another party

[PLATO]

Wouldn't the grown up thing to have done here been to have let that go through and preserve your powder for the debt ceiling where public support had been aligning behind increased spending controls? This would have had the benefit of not distracting coverage from the debacle of the O'care roll out.

Probably, but at least they got a promise of negotiations. Let's see how those go. We will know the answer to this question on December 13.

Democrats are going to have to give on entitlement reform and Republicans are going to have to give on taxes.

Frankly, I have been a long time supporter of lower taxes. However, the income disparity in the country is as great as it has been since the Great Depression. The simple truth is that the rich are not reinvesting to create jobs. Because of this, I have become a supporter of increasing taxes on the rich...with the provisio that they get tax breaks for actually creating jobs.

The "No new taxes" of the Republicans has got to go...just as the "No Entitlement Reform" of the Democrats has got to go. These programs have got to be made sustainable.

[Guynemer]

Probably, but at least they got a promise of negotiations. Let's see how those go. We will know the answer to this question on December 13.

Democrats are going to have to give on entitlement reform and Republicans are going to have to give on taxes.

Frankly, I have been a long time supporter of lower taxes. However, the income disparity in the country is as great as it has been since the Great Depression. The simple truth is that the rich are not reinvesting to create jobs. Because of this, I have become a supporter of increasing taxes on the rich...with the provisio that they get tax breaks for actually creating jobs.

The "No new taxes" of the Republicans has got to go...just as the "No Entitlement Reform" of the Democrats has got to go. These programs have got to be made sustainable.

Already used my Thanks on the announcement of DFG's banning.