Hammer and Sickle: As Offensive as the Swastika?

[Ben Kenobi]

We don't have anything of the sort. The Jewish 'evidence' that Moses wrote the texts attributed to him is like the Greek 'evidence' that Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Lacking evidence to the contrary - we go with what we have.

Thomas Hobbes is one of the most notable writers to point out the textual anomalies and anachronisms behind the notion that 'Moses' was the author of the texts attributed to him. Quite a few Jewish writers, scholars and rabbis have done so too. Poor Sister Bendy, still playing catch up with the 17th Century and earlier.

Does Thomas Hobbes provide an identity for the person who actually wrote these books since it wasn't Moses?

And they would know what went in private conversations between husband and wife how, exactly ?

I'm saying that convictions are generally held and more widespread. That the parents object indicates to me that there's significant reason to doubt that she wanted this to happen to her. Had the parent been in agreement that these were her wishes - it would be a different story.

It just seems to convenient to me that Michael is the only one who saw and heard her saying anything about this sort of thing. I look at my own life - my convictions are pretty much understood by a wide range of people on this issue. If my wife were to turn around and say something contrary to this - it would raise flags right away.

If they weren't routinely privy to the intimate discussions of their daughter and son-in-law it's mere speculation on your part.

It's an indication of reasonable doubt that she has the convictions that Michael ascribes to her.

[Ben Kenobi]

You don't have any evidence. You have someone saying something that they made a guess at.

Couple problems here.

One, the books are referred to as the 'Books of Moses' throughout scripture. Chronicles, Ezra-Nehemiah, Kings, all refer to the Penteuch as "The books of Moses." These books were all composed around 500 BC. They indicate that by this time period these books were known as the Books of Moses, by a consensus among the Jews of the time. This is 500 years prior to Christ, it's not just one reference, or just one book. Multiple authors say the same thing.

Two, Deuteronomy explicitly claims to be the work of Moses. So you have inter-textual evidence that makes the argument for Moses as the author.

Three. I wonder if Kidicious is even smart enough to understand who he is citing. Are you aware Kidicious that your thesis doesn't even predate Victoria? It's very late and it's very wrong.

It's likely that Genesis (and Genesis alone), was composed long before Moses ever came along - but the version that we have today is Moses' version. Everything else from the story of Abraham down is probably an original of Moses. Genesis is a funny book - it would be interesting to learn who precisely wrote/recorded the earliest version of the first part.

[Ben Kenobi]

Kidicious:

Are you aware that Christ himself said that the Torah was written by Moses?

“For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”

John 5:46-7.

[onodera]

No, BK, we're not aware that someone we call John wrote down exactly what JC had said.

[Lonestar]

That's probably the only way Ben will ever get laid.

[Jon Miller]

Thinking that Moses wrote (at least part) of the Torah is a rational position to hold.

I am not sure why people are on Ben's case over this, when you have so much to be on Ben's case about.

There is more evidence for the Torah being written (at least in part) by Moses than for the Odyssey/Iliad to being written by Homer (although, of course, just limited evidence for both and some serious theories in opposition).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Thinking that Moses wrote (at least part) of the Torah is a rational position to hold.

I am not sure why people are on Ben's case over this, when you have so much to be on Ben's case about.

There is more evidence for the Torah being written (at least in part) by Moses than for the Odyssey/Iliad to being written by Homer (although, of course, just limited evidence for both and some serious theories in opposition).

JM

[Sava]

JM: It's not a hard fact. It's reasonable to think so, sure. But there is no proof. I accept the proposition as true... but from a position of complete ignorance. It's absolutely ridiculous to emphatically argue the point as if it were an unquestionable truth.

[giblets]

Thinking that Moses wrote (at least part) of the Torah is a rational position to hold.

I am not sure why people are on Ben's case over this, when you have so much to be on Ben's case about.

There is more evidence for the Torah being written (at least in part) by Moses than for the Odyssey/Iliad to being written by Homer (although, of course, just limited evidence for both and some serious theories in opposition).

JM

Parts of it could have been written by Moses, assuming he existed, but I don't think the evidence points to the Torah having a single author and claiming Moses wrote it is a bit inconsistent with declaring oneself a "skeptic". A skeptic doesn't say "well orthodox jews say so, so that's good enough for me" a skeptic says "no one really knows the identity of the author(s)".

[Jon Miller]

You can be skeptical to the serious theories in opposition, which have been dominant for the last ~200 years among scholars.

JM

[Jon Miller]

You can be skeptical to the serious theories in opposition, which have been dominant for the last ~200 years among scholars.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Kidicious:

Are you aware that Christ himself said that the Torah was written by Moses?

“For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”

John 5:46-7.

Christ was debating with the Pharisees. He wasn't making the point that the Torah was written by Moses. He was making the point that the Pharisees didn't believe their own scriptures.

[Kidlicious]

There is more evidence for the Torah being written (at least in part) by Moses than for the Odyssey/Iliad to being written by Homer (although, of course, just limited evidence for both and some serious theories in opposition).

JM

evidence, such as?

[MRT144]

Sorry, I just don't see a whole lot of 'love' there for Terri. Worked great for Michael - he disposed of his wife, got to move on.

I hope you never get married.

[molly bloom]

Does Thomas Hobbes provide an identity for the person who actually wrote these books since it wasn't Moses?

Given that the majority of the kind of texts that make up the Bible were originally anonymous, there is no need for Hobbes to assume that one author is responsible for the texts attributed to Moses.

throughout scripture.

Wow. Which is of course immune from revision.

Deuteronomy explicitly claims to be the work of Moses.

The text of 'Lolita' claims to be by Humbert Humbert. The letters in Richardson's 'Pamela' are supposedly by more than one person. Oliver Goldsmith wrote letters pretending to be Chinese. In French, there are the 'Lettres Persanes' of Montesquieu.

Why might someone born after the time Moses supposedly lived want to attribute the texts of Deuteronomy to Moses ? Why assign texts to someone who is meant to be a conduit for 'divine' laws ?

Is any of this getting through that granite impermeability that passes for your consciousness ?