Ben Kenobi vs Michael the Great

[kentonio]

I could quote Dr. King here. In order for deaf people to participate fully in the community at large, they have to be integrated. There is no other way. They should be mainstreamed and not left in special education, and it should begin early - because that is when most of the damage is being done. I believe they should have the same access that everyone has to public education, to the same teachers, to the same classrooms, and yes, to the same washrooms and drinking fountains as the 'normals'.

Ben, the reason you're frustrating as hell is because on issues like the education of deaf children you could so easily be a really relevant source. You know more about it than anyone else here, you've lived through it, and on questions like sign vs speech you might well be completely right. As usual though you completely torpedo your own credibility by taking a reasonable position and twisting it into a wildly ridiculous one that makes everyone just laugh at you.

Deaf people go through huge trials and tribulations and I'm sure the system could be much, much better if people were better educated about it, but comparing it to the deliberate sadistic oppression of an entire race is not only stupid but also offensive. You might have suffered some bad treatment over the years, but you certainly have not suffered the kind of terror that a black person growing up in pre-Civil Rights southern America had to go through.

[Kidlicious]

Cost per student per year in my district is now about 9k. Looking some stuff up speech therapy up there is about 50 dollars for an hour session, once a month. That adds up, to around 8 hours per year, about 400 dollars per year.

I'm not sure if it was covered by the school, but if it was covered by the school, then that would mean that the cost of my education was about 4.3 percent extra than the usual student, ceteris paribus.

Why didn't your parents pay for your speech therapy, or did they have different political beliefs?

[Kidlicious]

It appears you have exhausted your argument.

I wasn't ever arguing with you. I was ridiculing you, and with good reason.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why didn't your parents pay for your speech therapy, or did they have different political beliefs?

My parents were/are secular liberals. They don't go to church, etc. As I said, I am not sure if they paid for it or not.

[Kidlicious]

My parents were/are secular liberals. They don't go to church, etc. As I said, I am not sure if they paid for it or not.

Of course they didn't pay for it.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Ok, and what is happening with deaf kids? If they cannot read at a 5th grade level, are they not being kept out of hearing society?

No, they're not. If you get out of school reading at a fifth grade level, you have two pools - people who can study more, try harder, and pursue methods of self-improvement, or people who do not have the ability to do so. Nothing legally, as a matter of mandated public policy, prevents the former. You state you were mainstreamed and got a college degree. You disprove your own need for martyrdom, because in Jim Crow era segregation, ******s didn't get "mainstreamed."

Schools? Higher education? The job market? What use is a library if they cannot read? What use is a movie theatre when they cannot hear? Restaurants, if they cannot afford them? Hotels, if they cannot afford them?

Do we have "deaf only" towns and areas of town? Do we burn out deaf people for trying to rent or buy a home in "hearingtown?" Do we have covenants attached to home and land sales, agreeing to never sell to colored, jews or deaf people? What use is a library? If you can read at a fifth grade level, you can read. You can improve yourself. The job market? If you can't do the job, that's one thing. If you're not even allowed to apply for the job because it's not for your kind, regardless of qualification, that's another. Movie theater? I guess because deaf people can't hear, we should ban them. Wait for the ****ing DVD with subtitles then. Ever heard of silent movies? ******s weren't allowed in white theaters for those, either. Restaurants and hotels? If you work for minimum wage, there will be some you can afford. Doesn't matter if you can afford it or not, if the legally sanctioned policy is "eat in back with the hired help" or "we don't let rooms to ******s."

And what do we have now? One setup for hearing folks, and one setup for deaf folks. We even make sure they are taught to sign so that they stay in the deaf ghetto and cannot even communcate with society at large. And best of all, like the man said, "Ignorance is bliss".

What laws prohibit them from learning to speak and choosing to speak rather than sign? How many deaf people are lynched or physically intimidated from voting? How many deaf people are forced to live in certain neighborhoods and not in others?

I rest my case - the evils of segregation is that it stripped black people of opportunity, of access to a quality education. And we are doing the same today with deaf folks. We have succeeded in successfully stripping them of an education by arguing that deaf people belong in the deaf ghetto.

You don't have a case to rest. The evils of segregation are not that it stripped blacks of "opportunity" - it stripped them of every form of participation in "normal" society, as a matter of law and force.

What we need is an "obtuse ghetto" so whiny morons with martyrdom don't bother the rest of society.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, the reason you're frustrating as hell is because on issues like the education of deaf children you could so easily be a really relevant source. You know more about it than anyone else here, you've lived through it, and on questions like sign vs speech you might well be completely right. As usual though you completely torpedo your own credibility by taking a reasonable position and twisting it into a wildly ridiculous one that makes everyone just laugh at you.

I am a relevant source. I've done my homework. The problem is that people expect me to affirm their biases when they haven't done their homework, and are offended by confrontational opinions that argue contrary to what they believe. You'd be praising me to the stars and I would be your go to guy if I did affirm you and what you believe. If I said that special education was ok and that deaf people were doing better and better, etc.

The problem is that this is not true. Deaf people are not getting a quality education. What we are doing now, isn't working. Deaf people are actually doing really poorly.

I believe, with evidence behind me that the best thing is mainstreaming with oral education, and not special education with sign language.

Deaf people go through huge trials and tribulations and I'm sure the system could be much, much better if people were better educated about it, but comparing it to the deliberate sadistic oppression of an entire race is not only stupid but also offensive.

It's offensive because it's true.

You might have suffered some bad treatment over the years, but you certainly have not suffered the kind of terror that a black person growing up in pre-Civil Rights southern America had to go through.

I already provided a source and a citation showing that rape + sexual abuse occured at schools for the deaf - where abusers took advantage of children with disabilities. So yes, while I did not personally suffer such abuse, others have and did suffer from this abuse. Would you rather I shut up and be quiet about the abuse, or rather that it was exposed for what it was?

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course they didn't pay for it.

Fine then. My massively expensive education cost 4.5 percent more than the average student.

[Kidlicious]

Fine then. My massively expensive education cost 4.5 percent more than the average student.

No. You can't use mathematics or use logic.

[kentonio]

I am a relevant source. I've done my homework. The problem is that people expect me to affirm their biases when they haven't done their homework, and are offended by confrontational opinions that argue contrary to what they believe. You'd be praising me to the stars and I would be your go to guy if I did affirm you and what you believe. If I said that special education was ok and that deaf people were doing better and better, etc.

The problem is that this is not true. Deaf people are not getting a quality education. What we are doing now, isn't working. Deaf people are actually doing really poorly.

I believe, with evidence behind me that the best thing is mainstreaming with oral education, and not special education with sign language.

If you'd actually read what I wrote, I said you may well be right about that. You're certainly in a much better position to know. Good work on assuming I was going to disagree and not bothering to read the actual words though.

It's offensive because it's true.

No it isn't, and as a 'historian' you should bloody know better. Remind me how many deaf kids have been lynched in Canada in the last decade.

I already provided a source and a citation showing that rape + sexual abuse occured at schools for the deaf - where abusers took advantage of children with disabilities. So yes, while I did not personally suffer such abuse, others have and did suffer from this abuse. Would you rather I shut up and be quiet about the abuse, or rather that it was exposed for what it was?

Why the hell did you obscure this with that other stupid crap? This is a perfectly legitimate thing to be furious about and do everything possible to combat! If you brought this up as an issue then there's probably not a person here who wouldn't back you to the hilt (well maybe a few but meh it's Poly). Just drop the 'it's like apartheid' nonsense, and you might find a pretty huge change in peoples responses.

[kentonio]

jonmiller

[Ben Kenobi]

No, they're not. If you get out of school reading at a fifth grade level, you have two pools - people who can study more, try harder, and pursue methods of self-improvement, or people who do not have the ability to do so.

Oh, c'mon MtG. Tell me, what jobs are available for someone who reads at a 5th grade level? The average deaf person reads at about a third grade level.

What is the most likely outcome for such a person? Disability. That's it, and that's all they will receive. Is that a great life? Not really.

Nothing legally, as a matter of mandated public policy, prevents the former.

Yes, it's public policy to teach deaf children sign language, to put them in schools of the deaf. Thus the result - they end up uneducated and unfit for work and unfit to use their talents in the workforce. The public policy at present is an abject failure. It has to change.

You state you were mainstreamed and got a college degree. You disprove your own need for martyrdom, because in Jim Crow era segregation, ******s didn't get "mainstreamed."

Yeah, me along with the other 5 percent or so. What about the other 95 percent?

If you can read at a fifth grade level, you can read. You can improve yourself.

There's reality and there's MtG. What's the most likely fate for folks that read at a third grade level, MtG? For a deaf person who reads at a third grade level.

The job market? If you can't do the job, that's one thing. If you're not even allowed to apply for the job because it's not for your kind, regardless of qualification, that's another.

What if you can't read because the education system that you grew up in didn't teach you?

Wait for the ****ing DVD with subtitles then.

Hey maybe those **** black folks can get in the back of the bus too.

If you work for minimum wage, there will be some you can afford.

Alright. You're a hiring manager. Someone who is deaf approaches you and applies for a minimum wage job. You've got a deaf person and an abled bodied person, equally qualified, who do you hire?

What laws prohibit them from learning to speak and choosing to speak rather than sign?

What laws are there to require that deaf children be taught to read? There aren't any.

The evils of segregation are not that it stripped blacks of "opportunity"

Again, talk to King. He argues that the most insidious evil of segregation is denying black folks access to a quality education. One who cannot even articulate what he feels cannot be his own advocate. The same applies to deaf folks.

[Kidlicious]

If you'd actually read what I wrote, I said you may well be right about that.

He's not. Schools for the deaf benefit deaf students greatly, they just cost more.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why the hell did you obscure this with that other stupid crap? This is a perfectly legitimate thing to be furious about and do everything possible to combat! If you brought this up as an issue then there's probably not a person here who wouldn't back you to the hilt (well maybe a few but meh it's Poly). Just drop the 'it's like apartheid' nonsense, and you might find a pretty huge change in peoples responses.

I didn't obscure it! I said so right at the beginning of this thread. It got buried by everyone avoiding the point.

I'll quote it again!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/11/25/alleged-sexual-assault-st-viateur-deaf-institute.htm

See the date on that ****ing article? 2012! ****ing goddamned 2012.

And then you sit on your prissy ass and argue, "It's not apartheid". What the hell else are deaf schools? What the hell else is this 'deaf' culture bull**** that leaves deaf students trapped in their own ****. That's goddamned apartheid.

[Ben Kenobi]

Schools for the deaf benefit deaf students greatly, they just cost more.

Then why do only 8 percent of all deaf students read at a 5th grade level? Some 'benefit'.