Abortion Thread CCLX

[MichaeltheGreat]

I don't know of anyone who proposes an absolute ban. Even Catholics.

JM

I've heard several. Various state legislature candidates.

[MrFun]

Well now let's just have the government monitor everyone so they'll always know when someone was conceived. As a side benefit we can protect the sanctity of marriage by punishing people who commit adultery.

What's wrong with government monitoring everyone? Many people are already in favor of government intrusion in people's lives by arguing that women should be forced to have a baby they do not want.

[MrFun]

This new law would result in an epidemic of people ****ing on international flights.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Well now let's just have the government monitor everyone so they'll always know when someone was conceived. As a side benefit we can protect the sanctity of marriage by punishing people who commit adultery.

If we finally get some morality back in this country, God will once again bestow His blessings upon us.

[MrFun]

I think it's appalling that zygotes are not given legal citizenship.

[Hauldren Collider]

If a zygote, embryo, and a fetus are each considered to be a person/human being, what is the stupid part of my OP?

I don't know, for a start, how about the part where you don't understand the difference between laws and morals?

Hurr durr if something is bad why isn't it illegal Q E ****ING D

[MrFun]

I don't know, for a start, how about the part where you don't understand the difference between laws and morals?

Hurr durr if something is bad why isn't it illegal Q E ****ING D

My OP does not discuss the difference between legality and morality.

My OP is about following the logic of anti-choice people. If a zygote is a human life, as anti-choice people argue, then shouldn't it follow that if a zygote is conceived within United States that the zygote should be given full, legal citizenship, rather than waiting until birth?

[giblets]

My OP does not discuss the difference between legality and morality.

My OP is about following the logic of anti-choice people. If a zygote is a human life, as anti-choice people argue, then shouldn't it follow that if a zygote is conceived within United States that the zygote should be given full, legal citizenship, rather than waiting until birth?

No because the 14th amendment doesn't mention conception and being a US citizen isn't a basic human right. Some master's degree in history.

[Hauldren Collider]

He is a "lincoln scholar", so that should be his area of expertise, right?

[MrFun]

No because the 14th amendment doesn't mention conception and being a US citizen isn't a basic human right. Some master's degree in history.

It's not a right, but one of the ways a person gains citizenship in United States is to be born in United States.

But given the logic of anti-choice people, why isn't there an outrage with the fact that zygotes are not given legal citizenship upon conception? We need to expand the 14th Amendment to include zygotes.

[DaShi]

Can I post some of those?

Yes, please do that.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben wants to ban abortions for medically contraindicated pregnancies in general, but I don't know if he wants to ban abortions for ectopic pregnancies.

Yeah, ectopic is an exception - and as for medical contraindication - the preferable option is an emergency c-section. If you can save life of mother and child then we ought to try to do so.

[Ben Kenobi]

Nice try. Technically, the answer is "no" as that is a philosophical argument, and, BTW, prohibited by the ex post facto clause. (e.g. legal personhood cannot be applied retroactively)

Which is why it did apply to those already born in what would become America, even if they weren't born in america in the 14th amendment.

Nice of you to try to conflate two totally different issues, though

Well sure, you believe that black adults are persons but black zygotes are not.

[Ben Kenobi]

Women being forced to undergo a potentially life threatening and extremely traumatic mental and physical condition

Most pregnancies aren't especially traumatic. Many women actually enjoy being pregnant. Sure, there are exceptions, but if you're counting post-partum depression, I don't think that's a sufficient cause to overcome the complications and trauma associated with Abortion. Women are more likely to die after an abortion than after giving birth.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yeah, ectopic is an exception - and as for medical contraindication - the preferable option is an emergency c-section. If you can save life of mother and child then we ought to try to do so.

If the pregnancy is medically contraindicated in the first place, by what moral authority do you delay treatment, potentially for many weeks, and force the woman to undergo a significantly more invasive procedure, on the basis of speculation that if the woman lives and does not deteriorate or suffer significant damage, you might be able to "save" a viable fetus?

What "we ought to do" is get the legislature and private moralization the **** out of hospitals and doctor's offices and let the woman make her own determination in consultation with her health care providers.