Abortion Thread CCLX

[Ben Kenobi]

If the pregnancy is medically contraindicated in the first place, by what moral authority do you delay treatment, potentially for many weeks, and force the woman to undergo a significantly more invasive procedure, on the basis of speculation that if the woman lives and does not deteriorate or suffer significant damage, you might be able to "save" a viable fetus?

The fact that there are two patients involved here, and not just one?

What "we ought to do" is get the legislature and private moralization the **** out of hospitals and doctor's offices and let the woman make her own determination in consultation with her health care providers.

If a hospital then didn't want to treat black people, you'd consider that ok?

[MichaeltheGreat]

The fact that there are two patients involved here, and not just one?

That's not a fact, it's a determination to be made by the woman and her doctors. Not some pederast old men in a church or their zealot followers, or a bunch of corrupt lawyers in some state house.

If a hospital then didn't want to treat black people, you'd consider that ok?

If the "black people" in question happens to be a conjoined twin which is fully absorbed within the body of another person and lacks the capability to live as a separate, biologically disinct organism, then nope, no problem. That's a determination to be made by the "host twin" and her doctor.

[DinoDoc]

I think this is a clever maneuver by the State.

Abortion clinic preparing for license revocation hearing

by Associated Press

Published: February 28,2013

JACKSON — Mississippi’s only abortion clinic is scheduled for an April 18 license revocation hearing before the state Department of Health, and officials say a decision could come days or weeks later.

The Health Department told the clinic in late January that it intends to take away its license because the facility had failed to fulfill requirements of a 2012 state law. The Center for Reproductive Rights said Wednesday that the Jackson Women’s Health Organization had received notice of the hearing date.

Health Department spokeswoman Liz Sharlot told The Associated Press that an administrative officer will conduct the hearing open to the public at 9 a.m. at the Health Department headquarters in Jackson.

The law says anyone who does abortions at the clinic must be an OB-GYN with privileges to admit patients at a Jackson-area hospital. Clinic owner Diane Derzis has said no local hospital would grant the privileges to the out-of-state OB-GYNs who work at the clinic.

“They were clear that they didn’t deal with abortion and they didn’t want the internal or the external pressure of dealing with it,” Derzis told AP on Jan. 11.

As for a decision: “It could be two to four weeks or more, depending on the amount of information presented,” Sharlot said.

The clinic is allowed to stay open while appealing its license revocation.

For 40 days this year, starting in January, abortion opponents prayed and held church services outside the clinic, trying to persuade women not to terminate their pregnancies. Clinic supporters have also stood outside the building holding signs in favor of reproductive choice.

The clinic’s former beige paint job was replaced with hot pink several weeks ago, making it more noticeable in Jackson’s Fondren neighborhood, an area of trendy restaurants and clothing stores about two miles north of the Capitol building.

Republican Gov. Phil Bryant, who signed the 2012 law, has said repeatedly that he wants Mississippi to be abortion-free and that he’d shut the clinic if he had the power to do it.

Supporters of the law say it’s intended to protect women’s safety. Opponents say admitting privileges are unnecessary because the clinic has an agreement to transfer patients to a local hospital if an emergency arises; the patients would be tended by physicians on duty at the hospital.

The clinic filed a federal lawsuit last summer as the law was about to take effect, arguing that it is unconstitutional because it would effectively block women’s access to abortion in Mississippi by closing the facility where most of the 2,000-plus abortions a year are performed in the state. A 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision in Roe vs. Wade established the nationwide right to abortion.

U.S. District Judge Daniel P. Jordan III gave the facility time to try to comply with the law, blocking any criminal or civil penalties during that period. Clinic attorneys are asking Jordan to extend that time.

The clinic filed a plan with the state Health Department showing that it intended to seek admitting privileges for its physicians, and the department allowed six months for that process, until Jan. 11. A Jan. 16 inspection was triggered by the clinic’s missing the Jan. 11 deadline.

The Health Department wrote a letter Jan. 24 that was delivered to the clinic the next day, showing the findings of the inspection. The department noted that none of the three physicians affiliated with the clinic have local hospital admitting privileges. It said one of the physicians previously had the privileges, but those had expired July 27.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I didn't know you were a proponent of communistic regulatory overreach to suppress private businesses? Maybe other states should pass a law that requires all employees of WalMart to have three digit IQs, or else they'll have to close down.

[DinoDoc]

I didn't know you were a proponent of communistic regulatory overreach to suppress private businesses?

Where's the overreach here?

Maybe other states should pass a law that requires all employees of WalMart to have three digit IQs, or else they'll have to close down.

Fine with me. Maybe I'd get better service while shopping there.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's not a fact, it's a determination to be made by the woman and her doctors.

When you can do open heart surgery on the fetus, then yes, it's a fact that there are two patients involved here.

Not some pederast old men in a church or their zealot followers, or a bunch of corrupt lawyers in some state house.

Choose what, MtG? To kill someone else? Nobody has the right to choose that.

If the "black people" in question happens to be a conjoined twin which is fully absorbed within the body of another person and lacks the capability to live as a separate, biologically disinct organism, then nope, no problem. That's a determination to be made by the "host twin" and her doctor.

So you're ok with regulating a private enterprise to force them to perform surgery on black people, but you also believe that it's not ok with regulating a private enterprise to perform abortions. Gotcha.

[kentonio]

Most pregnancies aren't especially traumatic. Many women actually enjoy being pregnant. Sure, there are exceptions, but if you're counting post-partum depression, I don't think that's a sufficient cause to overcome the complications and trauma associated with Abortion. Women are more likely to die after an abortion than after giving birth.

Jesus christ you're a ****ing idiot sometimes. While the experience of pregnancy can indeed be enjoyable, that doesn't mean it's not extremely hard on the body, VERY painful, and potentially lethal. Even desired pregnancy can lead to some pretty heavy postnatal depression, so how the **** does you think a woman is likely to deal with the mental trauma of an UNWANTED pregnancy.

Actually why the **** am I even talking to you? You're not only a moron but you've shown countless times that you're an inhuman monster with no morals or feelings.

[giblets]

Don't be silly Kentonio, women seek abortions because pregnancy is just more fun than they can handle. The reason women occasionally die from pregnancy is because they're laughing themselves to death.

[Guynemer]

I think this is a clever maneuver by the State.

Clever is certainly a word that could be used accurately here. There are... several others.

[Hauldren Collider]

I think this is a clever maneuver by the State.

[Felch]

I didn't know you were a proponent of communistic regulatory overreach to suppress private businesses?

You oppose states regulating medical practitioners? So any stew bum with a scalpel should be able to perform appendectomies from a mall kiosk? I've got my libertarian tendencies, but I don't want to go back to leeches and hacksaws.

[Tupac Shakur]

How about we NEVER ****ING TALK ABOUT THIS AGAIN, okay?

We also never again need to talk about what the best main battle tank of all time is, as it's quite obviously the T-34.

[Ben Kenobi]

Felch, MtG believes that only abortionists should be able to operate out of a mall kiosk. Every other medical practitioner should be regulated.

[Ben Kenobi]

While the experience of pregnancy can indeed be enjoyable, that doesn't mean it's not extremely hard on the body, VERY painful, and potentially lethal. Even desired pregnancy can lead to some pretty heavy postnatal depression, so how the **** does you think a woman is likely to deal with the mental trauma of an UNWANTED pregnancy.

Do you believe that abortion is traumatic? My argument isn't that pregnancy has zero trauma. My argument is that it's less traumatic than having an abortion.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Which is why it did apply to those already born in what would become America, even if they weren't born in america in the 14th amendment.

Can you try again in English? And no, it didn't apply retroactively - no civil causes of action arose on a theory of torts (false imprisonment, etc.) against the "person" of former slaves. Their legal "personhood" did not occur until the moment the amendment or other relevant look took effect.

Well sure, you believe that black adults are persons but black zygotes are not.

I've even offered to give you a few weeks before fetal viability based on a medically objective standard of brain function or anatomic structural development, but you won't take that, so let's stick with fetal viability. Legal personhood starts then.