Originally posted by Kuciwalker
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How does this happen? Chick-fil-A branded as anti-gay?
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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I can't recall ever having a CFA sandwich and thinking it was too dry. The meat has always been juicy.
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So most people are up in arms about CFA's freedom being violated, but they support my having the freedom to marry a man whom I am romantically in love with to be denied.
I guess you guys are not really that big of a fan of freedom, then.A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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Originally posted by Kuciwalker View PostOh, I couldn't possibly have been using that as an example of the absurdity of his position, could I?
Because apparently I wasn't clear enough - I do not support the mayor's actions.
I'm illustrating the absurdity of the American ideal of freedom. You have lots of contrived examples of arbitrarily limiting freedom and no one bats an eye. I think you, specifically, have argued that you don't support gay marriage but "the people have spoken" (not your words, but your concept).
How can people democratically ban gay marriage but people can't democratically ban Chick-fil-A? Are individual rights really less important than the rights to do business?"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View PostOf course... Asher wouldn't be denying that either (ie, pay attention to his argument).
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Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
Perhaps because one is protected by free speech and the other isn't?"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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Originally posted by Elok View PostHis argument doesn't seem to be leading anywhere in particular. Nobody ever said our various social restrictions were "about freedom," except to the extent that churches want the freedom not to recognize gay marriages, etc. The American conception of liberty is extremely individualistic and perfectly consistent (not always good, but consistent) to the extent that it is applied.A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.
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Originally posted by Elok View PostThe American conception of liberty is extremely individualistic and perfectly consistent (not always good, but consistent) to the extent that it is applied.
His argument doesn't seem to be leading anywhere in particular. Nobody ever said our various social restrictions were "about freedom,""The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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Originally posted by Kuciwalker View PostOh, I couldn't possibly have been using that as an example of the absurdity of his position, could I?
Your purposely absurd arguments lead to absurdity!“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View PostDespite that, it should be mentioned that numerous courts in the US have decided that you can't. Examples include Iowa and Massachusetts.
Courts decide what is or is not legal within the framework of law. We do not philosophically define freedom by what legislators think it is."The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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Originally posted by Asher View PostBecause apparently I wasn't clear enough - I do not support the mayor's actions.
I'm illustrating the absurdity of the American ideal of freedom. You have lots of contrived examples of arbitrarily limiting freedom and no one bats an eye.
I think you, specifically, have argued that you don't support gay marriage but "the people have spoken" (not your words, but your concept).
How can people democratically ban gay marriage but people can't democratically ban Chick-fil-A? Are individual rights really less important than the rights to do business?
2) More generally, certain freedoms (speech, assembly, voting) are fundamentally necessary for democracy; marriage isn't one of them. That isn't to say it isn't an important right or that it shouldn't be protected, but restricting it isn't undemocratic, just bad.
edit: just to be clear, democracy and freedom are both valuable but distinct virtues, and they occasionally conflict. In some cases democracy should win, especially when it's clear that in the long run democracy will be consistent with freedom (e.g. gay marriage). In other cases freedom should win (e.g. speech).Last edited by Kuciwalker; July 26, 2012, 12:30.
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