Social Studies teacher: Don't you dare say bad things about the President!

[DinoDoc]

as your precious bible states. You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Are they equal...

You do realize that the Bible neither asks for nor requires the "enslavement" of your partner in a marriage, correct? If this is merely trolling Ben rather than a serious argument, I apologize for the interruption.

[Ben Kenobi]

You do realize that the Bible neither asks for nor requires the "enslavement" of your partner in a marriage, correct? If this is merely trolling Ben rather than a serious argument, I apologize for the interruption.

Rah is Catholic. He's quite familiar with scripture.

[Jon Miller]

My experience is that Catholics are not very familiar with scripture.

Nor are many groups of Protestants.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Where did either of say that we had a problem with wives that stayed at home?

Not you so much, as Ming. Ming made it clear that my choice to have a woman who liked baking me pies was misogynist. I'm wondering, how? If she likes, and enjoys doing it, then that's why I chose her in the first place. See - I don't want to force anyone (least of all my wife), to do things that they hate doing. There's enough of that in life already without making things even more difficult! I'd rather be with someone who enjoyed cooking, enjoyed looking after children, who didn't see either as a chore but as part of what made life worth living.

I've dated women who saw things differently. Nice people for sure - but it quickly became something that I realized wasn't that common. This is why I started specifically looking for this attitude. Saves me plenty of time. That's not even to say that I haven't dated those with no interest in children, etc. Geesh. It's about the gal. If I like her, we go someplace fun and enjoy ourselves.

You even stated "If the wife chooses this". That's the true issue here. If our wives choose to do this and our family unit could afford it, we would allow them to choose.

I feel the same way, rah. You seem to think that I would keep her home against her will. Not the slightest.

Anyways, how the conversation would go in this particular hypothetical -

She comes home, devastated, finds out that she was pregnant by the ***** who raped her. We have that long, teary conversation together. I tell her, look, I understand that you want the abortion but you have to understand how I feel about it. I would tell her that my faith challenges me to step up and help her raise the child. The child is hers just as much as any of her other children, and I could no more kill this one than any of her other ones. And that would be the end of it.

Would I lay my foot down and say, do this or pack your bags? Absolutely not. But I would make it very clear that this is how I felt and that I didn't agree with her decision to seek an abortion and why. I would see it as my duty, not only to her but to her child and to God to try my damndest to pursuade her not to kill her child. Why? Because it's something that cannot be undone. You can't go back and ask for a do-over. You can't go back 4, 5 months down the line and say, "I ****ed up, let's do something different?"

Hell, the type of woman that I want is someone that I trust their judgement. That's about the most important thing to me. I like tits, but hell, given the choice? I like the bossy chick that is willing to tell me off when she thinks I'm being a damned fool, and is right about it. FFS - do I strike you as someone that walks around convinced that I'm God's gift to mankind? Strong women are a good thing. Women who stay at home aren't weak. That's my point that I want to drive home. People seem to believe that submissive people are Christians because God tells them to submit. Sure, some people are - but the reason it's put there is because Christians struggle with it! If it didn't need to be said, then Paul wouldn't have spent his time teaching it. Do you really think that the people sat there, listening, nodding their heads at Paul's eloquence? Far from it! Paul even admonishes the congregations for backsliding, and many other things. I have no doubt that Ephesians 5 to the ex-atheists and ex-libertines, and ex-Greeks went over like a lead balloon.

But, I disagree with you that truth is something like candy when it is more like castor oil. Good for you, but people don't like taking it!

Are they equal and get to choose or must they obey the head of household? (i'm sure at this point you'll change your definition of HOH)

Again, you believe that 'equality of value' is the same as 'equality of function'. They are most certainly not. You don't have a good understanding of servant leadership. Christ himself says, "The greatest among you must be servant to all". That's the model for the Christian father.

You claim expertise because you've talked to a few real women.

I've talked to quite a few that I know well, and they come to me to ask me questions about what they ought to do about X. I work with around 20 of them, all teachers, rah, and all much more knowledgeable than me in life. And I ask them whenever I get a chance about stuff that stumps me.

And I'm not even talking about the few that have changed my life for the better.

Come back after you've sustained a REAL relationship that has stood the test of time. Maybe then you'll really understand what sacrifice and love is.

Do you realize how arrogant you sound rah?

[rah]

Rah is Catholic. He's quite familiar with scripture.

I don't know about that anymore. I only go to church for marriages and funerals. I refuse to give a penny to them. While I probably still consider myself one, it's blurry, and I am often ashamed to even be considered one. So I guess I'm not really one.

Granted I studied scripture every day for eight years of catholic grammar school, as I age my memory of it is fading. It's had a long time to fade

And I guess that's why I get so angry/frustrated with Ben. He's the type of catholic that made me stop participating. (that and the way the church protected the priests over the children and how it treats women)

The church does do a lot of good things but it has not adopted to the modern world. Either has Ben. But he doesn't have the same excuse because he didn't exist back then

[rah]

Do you realize how arrogant you sound rah?

Not at all. I'm a firm believer that experience is the best teacher. I am always suspicious of those that claim expertise without actual experience.

I have over 25 years of experience being married to the same person. You have 0. While no man can ever be an expert about women, I figure I have a leg up.

[Ben Kenobi]

It has everything to do with you and your warped view that marriage should be slavery

Except for the fact that Ephesians 5 explicitly argues against it?

with the Man having all the authority simply because he is a male.

Well, then you need to spend more time with scripture. Please show me where Christianity teaches that leaders oppress their flock. Christianity teaches that the leaders are to give their life to the flock to protect them from ravenous wolves. They are the first to get up in the morning and the last to go to bed.

Every woman I've known worth her salt, and I've been fortunate to meet enough of them, some have absolutely blown me out of the water. I've been very blessed.

And yeah, ancient is bad in this situation since the world has changed a lot since then.

And Plato expresses your view in the republic. Ancient!=bad. Ancient is just that, old.

It's a different world we live in today, one where women are no longer considered chattel.

And the ancient world treated women like chattel. I see. People like Theodosia, ex-courtesan.

telling her how she has to live her life.

And she doesn't tell you how to live yours?

And I've also talked to a lot of happily married women who think your concept of marriage is a joke, and would never want such a relationship. And these are people who have been married for 25 years or more.

How many of them Christians? Did you tell them that I wanted an Ephesians 5 marriage, or did you tell them that I believed women should be slaves to men?

If you can find a wife that wants to be your slave... go ahead.... oh, and how's that coming.

One, I don't want a slave, I want a wife. Someone that I can look after and she will look after me.

Two, first intelligent thing you've asked in quite some time. Well enough. No complaints.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not at all. I'm a firm believer that experience is the best teacher. I am always suspicious of those that claim expertise without actual experience.

And where did I claim that people should follow my expertise in these matters?

I have over 25 years of experience being married to the same person. You have 0. While no man can ever be an expert about women, I figure I have a leg up.

And you still don't understand Ephesians 5. Pity. Is it because you haven't read it, or because you have and didn't understand it? I have to deal with attitudes like yours all the time. People have this impression of Christianity that is 100 percent false. I know so, because I did so, and many moons before it had to overcome my own prejudices.

Arguing that Christian marriage = slavery is ignorant prejudice plain and simple. You claim to be Catholic? You need to open up your bible and read the darn thing rather than taking other Christians to task for not conforming with your prejudice.

[Ben Kenobi]

And I guess that's why I get so angry/frustrated with Ben. He's the type of catholic that made me stop participating. (that and the way the church protected the priests over the children and how it treats women)

Which is why I said the following:

You have this whole perception in your head, and this really has nothing to do with me. This is a battle you've been having with yourself for the last 40 years. Maybe longer

I'm just a stand in for your issues that you've been having with God, and with the Church for the last 40 years.

The church does do a lot of good things but it has not adopted to the modern world. Either has Ben.

And you consider that an insult? That's a compliment, rah. Thank you. No, the purpose of the Church is to teach what Christ teaches. Not the cause de jour. See, that's the whole problem here, you believe that the Church of today should be the Church of 1965. It's not, and never was. That's why you left in the first place, because you wanted the Church of 1965, and what you got was the Catholic church. That's why I said it's not like Burger King - you don't get to walk up to the altar and ask for the host to be done "your way".

[Ming]

Not you so much, as Ming. Ming made it clear that my choice to have a woman who liked baking me pies was misogynist. I'm wondering, how? If she likes, and enjoys doing it, then that's why I chose her in the first place. See - I don't want to force anyone (least of all my wife), to do things that they hate doing. There's enough of that in life already without making things even more difficult! I'd rather be with someone who enjoyed cooking, enjoyed looking after children, who didn't see either as a chore but as part of what made life worth living.

Again... making stuff up. My problem are your comments that it's the men's role to die for his wife, and the wife's role to obey her husband.

I've dated women who saw things differently. Nice people for sure - but it quickly became something that I realized wasn't that common. This is why I started specifically looking for this attitude. Saves me plenty of time. That's not even to say that I haven't dated those with no interest in children, etc. Geesh. It's about the gal. If I like her, we go someplace fun and enjoy ourselves.

So you are specifically looking for a slave who will do your bidding?

Anyways, how the conversation would go in this particular hypothetical -

She comes home, devastated, finds out that she was pregnant by the ***** who raped her. We have that long, teary conversation together. I tell her, look, I understand that you want the abortion but you have to understand how I feel about it. I would tell her that my faith challenges me to step up and help her raise the child. The child is hers just as much as any of her other children, and I could no more kill this one than any of her other ones. And that would be the end of it.

Would I lay my foot down and say, do this or pack your bags? Absolutely not. But I would make it very clear that this is how I felt and that I didn't agree with her decision to seek an abortion and why. I would see it as my duty, not only to her but to her child and to God to try my damndest to pursuade her not to kill her child. Why? Because it's something that cannot be undone. You can't go back and ask for a do-over. You can't go back 4, 5 months down the line and say, "I ****ed up, let's do something different?"

In other words, you don't care about or respect her opinion, and you will badger her until she does as you tell here to.

Again, you believe that 'equality of value' is the same as 'equality of function'. They are most certainly not. You don't have a good understanding of servant leadership. Christ himself says, "The greatest among you must be servant to all". That's the model for the Christian father.

More religious mumbo jumbo. You either believe that your wife can have a different opinion, and you need to respect it, and allow her to make her own choices, or you believe that as the male, you have the GOD GIVEN right to have the final say. And you have made it perfectly clear what your stance on this issue is.

Do you realize how arrogant you sound rah?

Do you realize how much you sound like a bigot... how you make out women to be second class people... how you think that with your very limited real life experiences, you still make it sound like you are an expert on every subject, with your only talking point usually being "that's what god wants" while offering up no real evidence or simply ignoring the mountains of evidence that proves you wrong....

Talk about sounding arrogant...
The good news is, most of the smart people on this forum see you as a moron... Which you prove with just about every post you make.

So go out and find your perfect slave... the one woman who will do whatever you want, while you ignore her desires and opinions.

[Ming]

Arguing that taxes = slavery is stupid, plain and simple.

FIXED

[Ben Kenobi]

I get a choice as to whom I want to marry, and whether I marry at all. Do I get the same decision with taxes? No? Then I guess your analogy sucks.

[Ben Kenobi]

Again... making stuff up. My problem are your comments that it's the men's role to die for his wife, and the wife's role to obey her husband.

Then take it up with St. Paul. He said it, not me.

So you are specifically looking for a slave who will do your bidding?

I would like to marry a lady who enjoys cooking and loves children.

In other words, you don't care about or respect her opinion, and you will badger her until she does as you tell here to.

I'm not sure how you interpreted that out of what I wrote, but it's good that your reading comprehension hasn't suffered.

Do you realize how much you sound like a bigot

So you would consider St. Paul to be a bigot? I'm quoting him.

how you make out women to be second class people

Again, equality of value doesn't require equality of function. You seem to have difficulty with this concept. You need to read Harrison Bergeron and get back to me.

how you think that with your very limited real life experiences, you still make it sound like you are an expert on every subject, with your only talking point usually being "that's what god wants" while offering up no real evidence or simply ignoring the mountains of evidence that proves you wrong

Aside from actually citing sections of Ephesians 5 to defend my argument whereas you simply say, "I know women who believe X and think you are dumb." Really, Ming? Good to know. As if all women believe and want the same things.

The good news is, most of the smart people on this forum see you as a moron

And a sparkling what, 1 of them being women?

while you ignore her desires and opinions.

Which is why I explicitly state that I would like to marry a woman who enjoys cooking and loves children.

[Guynemer]

Please, please, I'm begging you, PLEASE don't pay your taxes. I would savor a good IRS frisking of you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Please, please, I'm begging you, PLEASE don't pay your taxes. I would savor a good IRS frisking of you.

Don't hold your breath.