Social Studies teacher: Don't you dare say bad things about the President!

[Ben Kenobi]

Except that doesn't actually happen.

Yes, I obviously said that no-one ever dies

Kentonio, is a liar. Nice job, slick.

Yes, Virginia, America should switch to single payer, where everyone gets treated even worse than if they lacked insurance in America. Wow. What a great leap forward.

Oh - btw they actually ban private health care in Canada, because we can't have people actually paying to get treatment! Imagine that.

[Ben Kenobi]

Typical... did I say "duty"?

That is why I asked the question. Had you said duty then I wouldn't have to ask the question.

It's all about love. People I know would willing protect their loved ones, be it man or woman.

So you don't believe that it should be the duty of a husband to protect his wife. Thank you, ming. So, you'd expect your wife to step in front of you to save your life, is that what you are saying?

[DaShi]

Ben doesn't understand single payer systems.

[kentonio]

Kentonio, is a liar. Nice job, slick.

You said people die waiting for waiting lists, not that people just die you dumb ****. If it had been anyone but you I'd have said that yes I was exaggerating slightly but that:

a) 500 people is unpleasant but quite negligible in a nation of 65+ million people
b) Waiting lists have dropped dramatically in recent years
c) It's still considerably better than a system where people have to rely on emergency room care

As its you, normal discussion is pointless however, as you're a natural born liar.

Yes, Virginia, America should switch to single payer, where everyone gets treated even worse than if they lacked insurance in America. Wow. What a great leap forward.

You stupid ****, I know American seniors who have to work menial jobs to try and pay for healthcare, can't afford things like basic housing and food as a result, and live in misery and constant worry and stress because of it. Seniors in the UK receive state pensions, free housing, free healthcare for ANYTHING, free transport to hospitals if they need regular treatment and free prescriptions. Oh and if people have money they have the choice to go private anyway.

You know nothing about anything.

[Ming]

That is why I asked the question. Had you said duty then I wouldn't have to ask the question.
So you don't believe that it should be the duty of a man to protect his wife. Thank you, ming.

What a ****ing moron you are.

I, like most human beings, will protect the ones they love.
If you want to think that it implies that I don't think it's a duty of a man to protect his wife or the wife her husband, and for both to want to protect their children and OTHER LOVED ONES, you are a even more of a complete idiot than most of us already think.

[Ben Kenobi]

I, like most human beings, will protect the ones they love.

My point is that you don't equate 'duty' with 'love'. So if you fell out of love with your family, does that mean you would stop protecting them? Is your protection based on your feelings or on the duty that you have to them?

Feelings change. Lots of people men and women, believe that if they no longer love someone, that they can do whatever they want and walk away from their family. I've seen it happen. How do you think the kids feel when their father decides that he no longer loves them and thus doesn't have a need to look after them? Like ****. And that's the lesson they pick up from their father that they do not have a 'duty' to their family.

I agree with you that most everyone cares for the ones that they love, but I see filial duty as going beyond this - to having to care for the ones that you don't really love, that you don't like at all, but they are still family. I don't have the choice not to look after them just because my feelings change.

you are a even more of a complete idiot than most of us already think.

Idiotic as it may be, I see it as a duty. "You should always wish to do your duty, you should never wish to do less." Do you think that Lee wanted to go to war with the North? That he wanted to step out there on the battlefield, and kill his colleagues and his friends? No. But he did so nonetheless, because he saw it as his duty.

[Ben Kenobi]

You said people die waiting for waiting lists, not that people just die you dumb ****.

And, yes, Virginia, people die while they are on waiting lists waiting for single payer health care that never comes. You said this doesn't happen. I've shown, quite conclusively, that it does happen, and it's so common, that it doesn't even merit a news item. You won't see an article in the paper saying, "man dies waiting for open heart surgery", on the front page. But you will see it on the front page when an Iraqi serviceman dies in Iraq. Why?

Because the deaths that are so common that they don't warrant a news item never supercede the deaths that are more common. One is far more likely to die waiting on the NHS than you are to die in combat in Iraq.

a) 500 people is unpleasant but quite negligible in a nation of 65+ million people

So you admit then, that yes, people can and do die quite often on the waiting list in a single payer system. Thank you.

b) Waiting lists have dropped dramatically in recent years

Yes Single payer sucks, but you should buy the new Pinto. It sucks less!

c) It's still considerably better than a system where people have to rely on emergency room care

Well, sure, except for the fact that everyone gets to wait, and wait longer than they would with emergency room care. And they don't have the option of actually paying money to get the care that they need. Well, unless they travel to the United States...

You stupid ****, I know American seniors who have to work menial jobs to try and pay for healthcare

I know Canadian seniors travelling to the United States so that they can actually get their hip replacement. Prompt treatment ensures that they retain their abilities when they are older.

Seniors in the UK receive state pensions, free housing, free healthcare for ANYTHING, free transport to hospitals if they need regular treatment and free prescriptions. Oh and if people have money they have the choice to go private anyway.

And tough **** if they get sick and need heart surgery. They'll die on the waitlist.

You know nothing about anything.

I'm not the one who stated that no one dies on the waitlist in a single payer system. Damn right they do, and it's so common that it doesn't merit individual reports in the newspapers. Except maybe the obituaries.

[Ming]

My point is that you don't equate 'duty' with 'love'. So if you fell out of love with your family, does that mean you would stop protecting them? Is your protection based on your feelings or on the duty that you have to them?

My feelings are the core concept of what I am. I don't see any difference between your warped concept of duty and my feelings. I don't see any possible example of how I could "fell out of love" with my family. No matter what happens, I will always love them and want to protect them. I don't need to make some silly religious vow to understand how I feel or how I would react.

And you can raise all the examples you want about how this or that, and I can bring up examples that are just the opposite, like the catholic example from another thread where a man who took the catholic vow raped a 9 year old and her handicap sister...

[Ben Kenobi]

My feelings are the core concept of what I am. I don't see any difference between your warped concept of duty and my feelings. I don't see any possible example of how I could "fell out of love" with my family. No matter what happens, I will always love them and want to protect them. I don't need to make some silly religious vow to understand how I feel or how I would react.

I'm just saying how we differ, that is all. Unlike you, I'm not saying your way is 'warped', or wrong. I'm just saying that for many people they can and do fall out of love and then walk out on their family.

As for the rest, I'm going to start inserting 'buddhist', everytime you say Catholic.

[Ming]

I don't believe in your slavery driven view of marriage where a woman is a second class person, forced to obey the whims of her husband simply because she is a female.

I believe marriage is an EQUAL partnership, where both parties share the same responsibilities and are equal when it comes to decision making, not some ancient tribal relationship where women are forced to do whatever their husband demands.

To me, your view is totally disrespectful of the person you claim to love... the fact that you can force her to do whatever you want simple because you are the male is totally screwed up... and If that's how your god thinks that it makes for a good relationship, than your god is a ****ed up thing.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't believe in your slavery driven view of marriage where a woman is a second class person, forced to obey the whims of her husband simply because she is a female.

Then you need to read what Ephesians teaches. Ephesians teaches that the husband has a duty to his wife and wives have different duties to their husband. It explicitly confirms that the husband and wife are equals (each husband his own wife, each wife her own husband).

What you believe is that in order to be equal, two people must do the exact same thing. What do you do in your marriage ming? Do you split things equally down the line, so that she does dishes one night, you do the next, ad infinitum? Or do you, as I suspect is the case, have each one of you contribute in different ways?

I don't see what the problem is if the wife stays at home, raises children, looks after the house and her husband. If the wife chooses this, then who are we to go out and say that she is 'enslaved'? Bull****. I know many women who are thrilled - thrilled that they don't have to go out to work and that they believe they got the best end of the deal! Far from being enslaved, they feel guilty because they aren't bringing home the dough and feel they ought to be contributing more to the house.

So, yeah. I talk to real women in real marriage, and they don't agree with you Ming. They are very happy with their man and would laugh their ass off at you if you said what they were in was 'slavery'. "If this is slavery, hell, I don't want to be free!".

I believe marriage is an EQUAL partnership, where both parties share the same responsibilities and are equal when it comes to decision making, not some ancient tribal relationship where women are forced to do whatever their husband demands.

So because Ephesians teaches that the husband is to be head of the house, it's an ancient document and therefore wrong? What then would you make of Plato's Republic that argues the same damn thing that you do here? Is Plato not ancient and tribal, even more so than Ephesians (which is actually much more modern)?

Labelling arguments that you disagree with as 'ancient', is boring. It doesn't even connote error - it connotes extemporality - the eternal teachings of Christ.

And precisely what tribe is Ephesians written by and for? Paul was a Jew! Are you saying that Jews are an ancient tribe that have zero connection with modern times?

To me, your view is totally disrespectful of the person you claim to love

Good thing I'm not married to you. I don't think your view is disrespectful, but then I actually understand your position, while you would rather score brownie points with the two minute hate then concede that yes, I could possibly be right about a thing or two.

Why should your opinion matter to me, Ming? Should I be going, oh heavens. Ming thinks I'm being disrespectful when I say that women can be women for daring to stay home and raise children and gosh damn it, being happy once in awhile. You speak for all women, Ming? Do I have to get your approval before I can find a woman?

the fact that you can force her to do whatever you want simple because you are the male is totally screwed up

You have no idea what I'm like. Not a clue. You have this whole perception in your head, and this really has nothing to do with me. This is a battle you've been having with yourself for the last 40 years. Maybe longer.

You've worked yourself up to the position where you are the enlightened sage on high and that you are the champion of women. Fair enough - but attacking the notion that men should be head of the household simply shows to me that you've picked up the prejudices of your time and are desparately hoping to enforce it on others.

If that's how your god thinks that it makes for a good relationship, than your god is a ****ed up thing.

Yeah, I think this is how God intended marriage to be. And I think God is far wiser than you, frankly.

[DaShi]

Ben is a blasphemer.

[Ming]

You have no idea what I'm like. Not a clue. You have this whole perception in your head, and this really has nothing to do with me. This is a battle you've been having with yourself for the last 40 years. Maybe longer.

It has everything to do with you and your warped view that marriage should be slavery... with the Man having all the authority simply because he is a male.
And yeah, ancient is bad in this situation since the world has changed a lot since then. It's a different world we live in today, one where women are no longer considered chattel.
I have no battle with myself... or my wife. We are equal partners and I don't treat her like a slave, telling her how she has to live her life.
And I've also talked to a lot of happily married women who think your concept of marriage is a joke, and would never want such a relationship. And these are people who have been married for 25 years or more.

If you can find a wife that wants to be your slave... go ahead.... oh, and how's that coming.

[rah]

Hmm those of us that had "obey" in our vows have stayed together in our marriages for over 25 years because we treat our spouses as equal partners. (my brother and I)
The guy that wants to substitute "die for" since he obviously believes the bible says his wife should be the equivalent of his slave hasn't found anyone yet.

You be the judge.

[rah]

I don't see what the problem is if the wife stays at home, raises children, looks after the house and her husband. If the wife chooses this, then who are we to go out and say that she is 'enslaved'? Bull****. I know many women who are thrilled - thrilled that they don't have to go out to work and that they believe they got the best end of the deal! Far from being enslaved, they feel guilty because they aren't bringing home the dough and feel they ought to be contributing more to the house.

So, yeah. I talk to real women in real marriage, and they don't agree with you Ming. They are very happy with their man and would laugh their ass off at you if you said what they were in was 'slavery'. "If this is slavery, hell, I don't want to be free!".

Where did either of say that we had a problem with wives that stayed at home? You even stated "If the wife chooses this". That's the true issue here. If our wives choose to do this and our family unit could afford it, we would allow them to choose. What we take issue with is if the man has the choice. "as head of the household" as your precious bible states. You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Are they equal and get to choose or must they obey the head of household? (i'm sure at this point you'll change your definition of HOH)

So, yeah. I talk to real women in real marriage,

I have to laugh. You claim expertise because you've talked to a few real women. Come back after you've sustained a REAL relationship that has stood the test of time. Maybe then you'll really understand what sacrifice and love is.