Hello everybody

[dannubis]

I'm confused. Is this relevant in some way?

Not at all...

[Ben Kenobi]

I just figured that the ignore list was broken somehow, before I looked at the name. Serves me right for looking in a BK thread, but it's actually not so bad if you just read the quotes and WTF reactions from people who have the time and energy to deal with him.

Still, this does have the troubling implication that we are all being taught to associate the elderly face of poor old Alec Guinness with wickedness and deceit. To that end, I suggest BK adopt a more appropriate avatar. Maybe get a closeup from the tall fella here.

Ixnay was kind enough to make me this avatar when I had enough posts back in 2003 or so. I've had this avatar nearly ten years. It's older than my username.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, seriously, quit making stupidly opbvious statements . I have seen your 100 year assertions. But apart from that you seem to be asserting that everyone today is a "slave" to the government.

Since 1913, yes. Prior to that, no. Things worked differently back then.

The difference between slavery and what the American governemnt does

This isn't something American specific, btw. It has to do with income taxation. Again, I suggest you read Hayek.

[Ben Kenobi]

Abstinence except for reproductive purposes is very unreasonable for a lot of people.

How so? Again, if your primary concern is 'not getting pregnant', it seems to me this is the obvious solution. There are plenty of ways to have fun that don't even entail a pregnancy risk.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now this is funny. I changed my avatar as a "welcome gift" for Ben. Perhaps I should keep this one for a while

I almost did this myself, when I realized that we both have the Norway flag up. I'll change back after Nik's done with the avatar, just too fun this way.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually it's six. He left out astrology because he's embarrassed by it.

Depending on how you look at it, I've had either two or three majors. Physics/Astronomy and History. Physics/Astronomy was a combined program at UBC, which I did for 2 years, and then switched. Half my degree is science credits; I have pretty close to the minimum for arts credits and history credits depending on how you class some of my courses. Not all of them transferred over properly. Spent close to a year getting everything all worked out with the registrar when I transferred over to UNBC. *sigh*. Glad that's done and I don't ever have to deal with that hassle again.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hmm, I thought single people could adopt. Just another example of Ben making crap up to support his ridiculous arguments.

The point being that most agencies have policies where two parent families get preference. There's plenty of evidence showing that all else being equal this is the better outcome for the children. Which brings up my second point. Adoption isn't about fulfilling the desires of the adults, but about placing the children in the best home for them.

I think it's important for a child to have a mother and a father, and depriving a child of either their mother or father is wrong. Placing a child in a bad situation in order to fulfill the desires of the adults is not good policy and leads to many other bad outcomes such as abuse. This is why the child's welfare needs to be paramount.

[Ben Kenobi]

Two fools singing from the same hymn book don't make a stupid assertion correct.

You asked what would a black person from Texas believe, and I answered, with a black person born in North Carolina who believes the same things that I do. Crying 'racist' is just a smokescreen. I like Sowell, and I've had a chance to read some of his works. So yes, you're right that it's not independent, since Sowell has influenced my own thinking.

If you were a slave, you did not have rights over your own body.

And income taxes force me to hand over part of my livelihood to the state. Ergo, I do not have rights over my own body.

You could be subject to arbitrary coroporal punishment

As opposed to Prison?

were unable to marry legally

Putting your family in a foster home.

could be sold abroad, could be forced to leave your family and never see them again, could be mutilated, could be beaten in public, could be abused physically and sexually by your owner or their friends and relatives- how does any of this apply to being a taxpayer ?

All this save sold abroad applies to prisoners in the US.

If you choose not to pay taxes, you may be fined or you may go to jail. You will not be sold to someone in, say, North Korea. You will not be hobbled, or have your foot amputated or your hand amputated. You will not be forced to have sex on the orders of the state. You will not be whipped in public until skin is removed from your back.

Just don't 'drop the soap'.

You are so stupid and so offensive to make this comparison, especially when slavery- real slavery- exists in the modern world.

Then take it up with Hayek et al. Your disagreement isn't with me (this isn't my idea, btw), but with the Austrians. Sure you might find it offensive, but isn't that the point of a thesis - to articulate an argument which effectively conveys their view of the world. Calling it offensive is not different then saying, "I disagree". Arguing that there are surface differences between the two ignores the parallels.

[Elok]

Seven in a row? Have you ever checked to see what that button in the lower right of every post does?

[giblets]

If parents make their children do chores it's SLAVERY because the child was forced to give up some of the fruits of their labor. In the Beniverse anyway.

[Ben Kenobi]

Very appropriate coming from you since you seem to be living in some weirdo fantasy land

Well, apparently people find Hayek more provocative than everything else. Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that to be the case. First time in quite some time that I've been defending him here. Usually he has quite a few more advocates, but I guess with Floyd gone, and Berz quiet that I'm on my own. Berz would be proud of me.

You are FREE to do whatever you wish with your life, and you have to pay your share to the government

Then I am not actually free. I'm enslaved to the state, and the state tells me how to live my life and takes away part of my livelihood.

Do you want to take a guess at what percentage of the US actually gets convicted of tax fraud/tax evasion

So your argument is that because most people get away with tax evasion, that makes theft ok? I don't see that at all. To me, that's an indication that the policy is a complete failure. Also, there's a difference between paying less than what you owe and paying nothing at all. See, to me it's not right to take your money from you and spend it on things that I want, but don't want to pay for myself. This is what is happening with taxation. Politicians pass all kind of bills to provide support for their constituencies, essentially, they skim off the top and take people's money away from them and then give some of it back. Wouldn't it be better to pare back the government to it's constitutional obligations and let people keep their own money and spend it how they wish? That's real freedom, and if an American says that's a fantasy, well I don't know what to say. America used to be like that. Now it's not.

And this example has what to do with this argument?

Answer the question, ming. Wouldn't you call the other person a thief and a robber?

The state doesn't own you. You are free to do whatever you wish. I can get a job I like, get married, have children, play golf, and do things with my life. Slaves can't do any of that.

But I am not free to spend the money that I earned how I see fit. Why is this?

Actually, you can... You can go to the state and work out a plan with them. In many cases, you can even get a lot of taxes waived.

Sure, that's how the game works. If you have money, they'll work with you. If you don't, you'll just get stuck with the bill. I paid more last year than Obama did as a percentage of my income. So there's plenty of loopholes, to protect sundry interests. It would be better to do away with these loopholes altogether and switch to a tax on consumption. Like the way it used to be.

It's easier for me to leave the country than it was for slaves to escape... so WTF are you talking about.

Well, that's what Pelosi is trying to change, by preventing people from using their passports if the IRS claims they owe money. Keeping the slaves on the plantation. Of course, I'm sure that doesn't apply to senators and congressmen. Can you imagine the howls if it did? Geithner not getting to travel abroad would be hilarious. Slaves and masters, different laws for each.

The crime of not paying his share

And why is this a crime?

Your point... in the way past, you had to hunt to eat... THINGS CHANGE. And thank god they do.

Speak for yourself. I've grown up on a farm out in the bush. Hunting is fun and so is fishing. Everyone should learn how to live off the land and survive so that they have the skills if they need them. But I know things are changing and modern, enlightened people see it as barbarism. Fair enough. You're missing out. If I could trade paying taxes with having to live off the land, I'd do that, but that's not how the law works anymore. I can't 'opt out', unless I suppose I'm Pennsylvania Dutch.

But you have the freedom to work the job you want

No, I don't, Ming. The state in Canada decides who works for them as a teacher, so I don't have the freedom to work the job that I want to work. Which is why I relocated so that I could work doing what I love. If Canada won't have me, I'll be happy to work my butt off in the states. I just think something like Cain's 9-9-9 plan and eliminating the IRS altogether is a huge step in the right direction of increasing, rather than decreasing individual freedom in America.

But apparently I'm too much of an American for the Americans here. The whole dream, of working hard, and getting ahead and having a life for yourself. What part of that entails paying taxes to support the behemoth of the state? I don't see that, but apparently that's an essential part of Americanness.

So stop trying to sensationalize things by throwing out the 6 month figure as if it's the standard... It isn't.

When you figure in all the other taxes and fees and fines on top of it, I'd wager that 50 percent of your income goes to supporting the state in some way shape and form. That's just a back of the envelope hunch. Maybe I'm wrong about this and the folks here can correct me, but still if it's only half as much, that's 3 months of the year that someone making 30k a year will be working for the state. Do you really think that you are getting good value for all that time and effort, ming? I don't. I think that Americans are getting screwed over by the system which seems to be working to help out everyone else in the world, but treats the needs of Americans last. Americans are paying to bail out Europe, even though Europe is less indebted that America, and paying for their bad decisions. Does this seem like a responsible use of taxpayer dollars to you?

not being able to practice your religion

That's just it Ming. I'm not able to practice my religion freely if the state forces me to pay for other people's abortions and other people's contraception through mandatory health care coverage.

[Ben Kenobi]

Seven in a row? Have you ever checked to see what that button in the lower right of every post does?

"Drag to resize"?

I like replying to each person individually. Helps me keep all the different arguments with different people straight.

[Ben Kenobi]

If parents make their children do chores it's SLAVERY because the child was forced to give up some of the fruits of their labor. In the Beniverse anyway.

That's ok. I think it's a good thing for children to learn how to do stuff for themselves, and for parents to teach them and give them an opportunity to show of their skills.

[giblets]

But apparently I'm too much of an American for the Americans here. The whole dream, of working hard, and getting ahead and having a life for yourself. What part of that entails paying taxes to support the behemoth of the state? I don't see that, but apparently that's an essential part of Americanness.

You have no ****ing clue what America is about. The United States is a government created BY THE PEOPLE and accountable TO THE PEOPLE. Comparing that to the tyranny of a slavemaster is absurd and offensive to this country. The people decided to include taxation in the constitution because without funding the government cannot protect and expand the freedoms of the people. No, you do not singlehandedly decide what the rules are. That's impossible, a one-man country on a desert island would offer a vastly inferior quality of life compared to what Americans enjoy today. If you don't like the US Constitution, the system under which the people chose to create the income tax to replace the high tariffs that restricted the freedom of Americans to trade with the rest of the world, you don't have to stay here.

[Ben Kenobi]

You have no ****ing clue what America is about.

Oh? Then why didn't the founders pass an income tax?

The United States is a government created BY THE PEOPLE and accountable TO THE PEOPLE. Comparing that to the tyranny of a slavemaster is absurd and offensive to this country. The people decided to include taxation in the constitution because without funding the government cannot protect and expand the freedoms of the people.

It was originally 1 percent of the income of only the highest earners. A far cry from what it is today. The government did just fine in protecting America prior; increased taxation simply expanded the size of the government beyond all reason. America is by the people, for the people and of the people, not by the government - the government does not issue us our rights, our rights are God-given, and cannot be alienated.

No, you do not singlehandedly decide what the rules are.

I follow what the constitution says. And the constitution explicitly limits the authority of the government, because of the concern that government expansion expanded the grip of tyranny over the people and had to be kept in check. America existed prior to the 13th and America will exist just fine if the 13th were repealed.

That's impossible, a one-man country on a desert island would offer a vastly inferior quality of life compared to what Americans enjoy today.

All of the expansion of the United States occurred prior to 1913. America is what she is today because of the decisions made in the 19th century to build and develop, going from a weak colonial power to a super power. If you had asked Lincoln what he would have thought of poor people paying a third of their income, are you saying he would have said, yes! We need to make government bigger and more powerful?