Hello everybody

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you sure? You don't appear to be that discriminating in your posts.

Well, I thought it was obvious given my reference to Sowell and Hayek, that I was arguing with the Austrians. So if that's not clear, I'll make it clear now that I was arguing against income taxation and not other forms.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because income tax is slavery but property tax is just fine.

Ugh. Property taxes are basically rent on something that you own. Don't get me started on those. Since Kelo, there's been a serious attack on actual ownership of private property wrt land.

[Kidlicious]

Ugh. Property taxes are basically rent on something that you own. Don't get me started on those. Since Kelo, there's been a serious attack on actual ownership of private property wrt land.

So you are saying the government owns your property, so it' just fine to charge you rent for it?

[Ming]

Oh sure, that and not having a visa to travel and enter to Singapore. But yeah, the only barrier is me.

Gee... sounds rough. I'll bet it's easier to get a visa to enter Singapore (let's ignore the fact that are other places you could go to) than it was for a slave to escape and actually make it to freedom.

Well, I'd question whether that is so, given what it would entail to actually enter Singapore. It's not exactly an easy thing to do.

People enter Singapore all the time... and the best thing about it is if they don't approve your visa, they don't cut off you foot.

And unlike a slave, there isn't a place where I can get to that will take care of me when I get there - like in the underground railroad. I suppose it's easier to smuggle yourself across a state line than it is to smuggle yourself across a continent.

You wouldn't be "smuggling" yourself across a continent you moron... And you wouldn't need some underground railroad for help. That was needed for slaves to avoid having them hunted down since they had NO RIGHTS... Unlike you, who actually has some rights.

See, what you aren't getting, Ming, is that it's no different than forcing someone to work for you than it is to pay income taxes.

But again, nobody is FORCING you to live in a country that has income taxes... unlike SLAVES, you have a choice and the freedom to go somewhere else.
But I guess that this too complicated of a concept for somebody with your limited brain power to understand.
Also, it goes far beyond the simple dollar aspects... it's also about personal freedom, something you are ignoring.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you are saying the government owns your property, so it' just fine to charge you rent for it?

Hrm? I'm saying that if you own your property that you shouldn't be charged rent on it by the government. You own the land not the state.

[Kidlicious]

Hrm? I'm saying that if you own your property that you shouldn't be charged rent on it by the government. You own the land not the state.

How do you propose to tax without limiting freedom?

[Ben Kenobi]

Gee... sounds rough. I'll bet it's easier to get a visa to enter Singapore (let's ignore the fact that are other places you could go to) than it was for a slave to escape and actually make it to freedom.

Well, seeing as the US is clamping down on it's citizens abroad, I'm not so sure of that. There's another bill that Pelosi is trying to pass that would clamp down on places like the Bahamas.

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you propose to tax without limiting freedom?

Taxation on businesses, taxation on rental properties and the businesses that operate them, tariffs and consumption taxes, state earnings from the sale of crown lands, public operations on crown lands, public utilities, etc. Fines and fares and tolls. Plus cutting back on government spending. Just making it so that government employees pay in 50 percent and the state matches it for their pensions would be huge savings.

[Ming]

Well, seeing as the US is clamping down on it's citizens abroad, I'm not so sure of that. There's another bill that Pelosi is trying to pass that would clamp down on places like the Bahamas.

What BS... You are ignoring the actual facts.

While the number is often debated, some believe that as many as 100,000 slaves escaped on the Underground Railroad between 1800 and 1865. However, this is only a tiny percentage of the slaves living in the South during this period. For example, in 1860, there were nearly four million slaves in the South. Additionally, the majority of slaves who attempted to escape were caught and returned to their owners.

Again... the odds of you being able to leave where you live for another country are FAR higher than it was for a slave to actually escape to freedom.
And again, if your visa request is denied, they don't cut off your foot for trying to leave.

[Kidlicious]

Taxation on businesses, taxation on rental properties and the businesses that operate them, tariffs and consumption taxes, state earnings from the sale of crown lands, public operations on crown lands, public utilities, etc. Fines and fares and tolls. Plus cutting back on government spending. Just making it so that government employees pay in 50 percent and the state matches it for their pensions would be huge savings.

Basically what you've done is call all the taxation that you are politically opposed to slavery, and claim that the taxation that you politically favor is not immoral at all. But there's no difference in limiting freedom by income tax or limiting it by some other tax. It's all just your hyperbole, nothing more.

[Ben Kenobi]

And again, if your visa request is denied, they don't cut off your foot for trying to leave.

Yeah, they just toss you in jail for evasion...

[Ming]

Yeah, they just toss you in jail for evasion...

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT... If you want to leave the country, DO SO. You will not be arrested and tossed in jail for doing so.
Again, for the simple mind that you have. If you don't like the laws of the land you CHOOSE to live in... LEAVE. NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU.
You will NOT get arrested for leaving... Unlike slaves, who were hunted down, returned to their owners, than had the foot cut off for attempting to be free.

[Ben Kenobi]

Basically what you've done is call all the taxation that you are politically opposed to slavery, and claim that the taxation that you politically favor is not immoral at all.

The difference is that no one is forced to endure any of these taxes. There are ways to avoid all of them by simply choosing to do things in a different way. For example, choosing not to own and operate a vehicle, so that you don't have to pay to renew your license, pay for plates and registration, etc. With respect to public utilities, it would be living in a rural area, where such things are not provided by the state, and having your own well, being off the grid, etc.

Toll roads, would mean driving a different route in the morning, or choosing not to drive at all. Consumption taxes, you get paid and then things cost more, if you choose to buy them. You could avoid these by gardening, and raising your own crops, etc.

The problem with income tax is that it takes the money away from people and prevents them from making their decisions as to how the money should be spent. Money earned from state lands and industry on the state lands, is actually the best way to pay for the desires of the state, because it imposes no burden at all on the actual people of the state, and the state profits through investment into industry, and uses that to pay for other things. I know it seems less than obvious, but a significant portion of government revenue is already derived from these sources. Another way would be through the buying and selling of investment bonds, etc. There are all kinds of ways to raise revenue that rely on voluntary and not involuntary participation.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you want to leave the country, DO SO.

You're unaware of the law that bars people from leaving the US should they owe money to the IRS?

[Ming]

You're unaware of the law that bars people from leaving the US should they owe money to the IRS?

NO.... you are the one ignoring reality. If you are not paying your taxes... THEN YOU HAVE ALREADY BROKEN THE LAWS OF THE LAND THAT YOU CHOOSE TO LIVE IN.
It was YOUR choice to do so...

If you haven't broken the law, you can leave. Slaves break the law simply by leaving/escaping.

By living in a country by your own choice, you are stuck with the laws of the land. If you don't like the laws, move. It's that simple. And again, far more simple than a slave trying to escape, and unlike the slave, it's legal for you to leave the country.