Line between bigotry and traditional values.

[MikeH]

They want to hurt their kids despite the evidence that it is bad? **** them frankly. I don't care what their point of view is, we deem it unacceptable to harm children in our society.

[Jon Miller]

I didn't say that it was acceptable. I said that saying that they want to harm their children/etc is not the rational conclusion. In many cases, they just don't believe the evidence/don't know about the evidence/etc.

But even in this case the marriage point is different. For the marriage point, nothing about men loving eachother or there being homosexuality in nature or whatever says that marriage should be expanded to include two men and not be the european traditional definition of a man and a woman.

That is your own value judgement, your own choice/etc. It isn't like beating children where the evidence is on the subject of beating children. The evidence regards to homosexuality are about whether homosexuality exists in nature/etc/etc, it has nothing to do with marriage! That is just your own desires/beliefs!

Show one point of direct evidence that marriage should naturally be two persons who bond/etc/etc and not man + woman who bond/etc/etc. You can't! Because it is purely a point of definition and and such direct evidence can't exist.

It is the worse type of prejudice to say 'I and others like me think this way, therefore those who think otherwise are evil/bad/etc/prejudiced/etc.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Is treating homosexuals differently purely because they are gay acceptable?

You're correct here, but gay marriage doesn't single out gay men. Straight men cannot marry, and neither can straight women. What you are trying to say is because some gay people (a minority), wish to be married, that denying them what they want is bigotry. Hardly.

[MikeH]

See Jon it's such a ridiculous argument it's the one Ben is putting forward!

[Jon Miller]

I didn't say that I agree with it. I am perfectly capable of understanding an argument, not demonizing the proponents of it, and disagreeing with it.

I said that just because someone thinks that marriage is the traditional definition does not mean that they are prejudiced/etc.

Ben obviously is, but my opinion of Ben doesn't come from this specific argument.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Uh, I don't see why it's ridiculous. Does the marriage require you to engage in sodomy? No. So it doesn't check to see if you are actually gay.

Ben obviously is

I think that homosexuality is harmful to those who engage in it. That makes me a bigot for caring that the gay folks are more likely to die young and contract sexuallly transmitted diseases?

Maybe we should legalize free heroin for heroin abusers so that we aren't bigotted against them. How bout that John?

[MikeH]

I said that just because someone thinks that marriage is the traditional definition does not mean that they are prejudiced/etc.

We can agree to disagree on that then.

Would you concede that a lot of people use the "I'm not a bigot, I just support traditional values" argument to hide their bigotry?

[MikeH]

Uh, I don't see why it's ridiculous. Does the marriage require you to engage in sodomy? No. So it doesn't check to see if you are actually gay.

I think that homosexuality is harmful to those who engage in it. That makes me a bigot for caring that the gay folks are more likely to die young and contract sexuallly transmitted diseases?

Well if they were allowed to marry, and practised an abstinence no sex before marriage program all those risks would go away? So presumably you'd be happy with that?

Maybe we should legalize free heroin for heroin abusers so that we aren't bigotted against them. How bout that John?

With free supplies to pure heroin (and things like needles etc.), you would certainly cut drug related petty crime, and the users would certainly live longer than they would if using street heroin and all the criminal associations that involves.

I would maybe not go as far as giving it free, but I would legalise and regulate it like tobacco and alcohol, use the tax revenue to fund rehab and drug education projects.

[Jon Miller]

We can agree to disagree on that then.

Would you concede that a lot of people use the "I'm not a bigot, I just support traditional values" argument to hide their bigotry?

Sure.

JM

[giblets]

Maybe we should legalize free heroin for heroin abusers so that we aren't bigotted against them. How bout that John?

End the war on drugs? Good idea

But the government shouldn't subsidize heroin.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well if they were allowed to marry, and practised an abstinence no sex before marriage program all those risks would go away? So presumably you'd be happy with that?

They would if they actually wanted and desired marriage. Since it's been in place here in Canada, most of the marriages have been granted to folks who aren't Canadian. Speaks volumes. There's just no demand for it.

With free supplies to pure heroin (and things like needles etc.), you would certainly cut drug related petty crime, and the users would certainly live longer than they would if using street heroin and all the criminal associations that involves.

I lived in the one North American jurisdiction that does just this. The Lower East Side of Vancouver. It's how shall we say, not a great policy for either the addicts or for the city. Harm reduction simply institutionalizes the problem.

I would maybe not go as far as giving it free, but I would legalise and regulate it like tobacco and alcohol, use the tax revenue to fund rehab and drug education projects.

It's a great idea in theory, but in practice devastates the community.

[Tupac Shakur]

Where do you draw a line between legitimate, sound traditional values, and willfully ignorant bigotry?

At the Mason-Dixon Line.

[giblets]

It's a great idea in theory, but in practice devastates the community.

Big government Ben riding to the rescue!

[Ben Kenobi]

Hrm? I'm arguing that the government shouldn't get involved in harm reduction. It's a terrible strategy that doesn't work.

[giblets]

You're arguing against making heroin free for heroin users? There's no one here to argue with on that point.