Line between bigotry and traditional values.

[Kidlicious]

For me it's about freedom of religion and racism. The gay marriage issue doesn't have anything to do with those things. Btw, I don't takes sides on this but I don't think it helps your cause by calling people bigots who are not.

[Jon Miller]

What do you fail to comprehend? The comparison is of apples and oranges anyways.

If someone believes that marriage is a joining of a man and a woman (and isn't willing to change), than it doesn't matter how much they love gay people or even if they are gay themselves.

You are really showing yourself incapable of doing anything but demonizing those who think differently than you.

Your example was wrong, btw. To compare apples and apples you would need to compare marriage laws with laws about the Jews being able to do usury.

Your example would be considering Jews to be demons to considering homosexuals to be demons... (or replace demon with subhuman or whatever)

JM

[Jon Miller]

For me it's about freedom of religion and racism. The gay marriage issue doesn't have anything to do with those things. Btw, I don't takes sides on this but I don't think it helps your cause by calling people bigots who are not.

Yeah, but it is just annoying and I can ignore MrFun just like I can ignore the anti-gay Christians.

Harder to ignore are people like rah who seem really against traditional marriage, and use the change of definition to support their position.

JM

[MrFun]

Your example would be considering Jews to be demons to considering homosexuals to be demons... (or replace demon with subhuman or whatever)

JM

Maybe considering homosexuals to be demonic is not necessarily homophobic, then.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why can a person be opposed to gay marriage on traditional values grounds without being called a homophobe, but then if someone believes that Jews are immoral for not believing Jesus Christ based on traditional values grounds is definitely an anti-Semite.

Again, false analogy.

Better analogy. Usury is wrong = antisemitism. You are saying that gay people should be defined by their conduct which is in effect, a bigoted statement. Bans on Usury are no more antisemitic than bans on gay marriage. You're basically arguing that Jewish people have no choice but to conduct usury.

[Ben Kenobi]

Maybe considering homosexuals to be demonic is not necessarily homophobic, then.

Uh, you are saying that arguing that gay marriage is wrong is the same as saying that homosexuals are demonic? WTF? Are you ok Mr. Fun?

[Asher]

How can one be "willfully ignorant"?

You manage it quite well, judging from the healthcare debate.

[Aeson]

Why can a person be opposed to gay marriage on traditional values grounds without being called a homophobe, but then if someone believes that Jews are immoral for not believing Jesus Christ based on traditional values grounds is definitely an anti-Semite.

A person cannot be opposed to gay marriage without being called a homophobe. (But then again, what can a person do that won't end up having them called racist, homophobe, or similar. This is the internet afterall! )

But more to the point, bigotry can take different forms. In some cases it's more damaging than in others. Someone who wants to kill all Jews/gays is a more dangerous bigot than someone who just doesn't want Jews/gays to marry. It's still bigotry though.

[Jon Miller]

Saying that marriage is a bond between one man and one woman and not two men is not bigotry.

Saying that marriage is a bond between one man and one woman and not two men because you think that two men being together is wrong/etc is bigotry.

Think about what bigotry is. It is a reason for things, there is nothing inherently bigoted about saying that marriage is a bond between man and woman (only) than there is about saying that only people over the age of 18 should have sex.

JM

[Jon Miller]

BTW, this is why I think the better argument is that gay marriage would be a good thing by providing support/etc to gay families/relationships. Because that is a good, then one should support gay marriage.

JM

[Aeson]

Saying that marriage is a bond between one man and one woman and not two men is not bigotry.

So... saying that marriage is a bond between those of the same race and not of two different races is not bigotry?

Either way you are judging the worthiness of the excluded couplings and saying they should not have access to marriage due to your biases. That's bigotry. You may think one is justified and not the other, but it's still bigotry in both.

Which of course is the heart of the matter. People see bigotry when it goes against their biases, but not when it's their bias.

[Ben Kenobi]

Aeson, do you believe that incestuous marriages should be banned?

[SlowwHand]

Blue Jays and Cardinals are both beautiful birds, but they don't intermingle.

[Kitschum]

Saying that marriage is a bond between one man and one woman and not two men is not bigotry.

Yes it is.

Insisting upon an (implied) second-class type of union - which is marriage in all but name - for homosexuals is bigotry just as insisting upon a special type of dress for Jews is anti-Semitism. Yes I went there.

[Aeson]

Aeson, do you believe that incestuous marriages should be banned?

Actually I believe that government shouldn't have anything to do with marriage.