Line between bigotry and traditional values.

[Aeson]

But it doesn't mean that the person doing it doesn't like children, is angry at their children, wants to harm their children, wants to hurt them, etc, etc, etc.

Actually it does mean they want to physically hurt the child for doing something "wrong". You're just giving reasons why they want to hurt the child.

[Zevico]

I think MF is confused about the meaning of certain words.

A racist is a person who holds ideas about "race" or ethnicity--i.e. that a person's race makes one better or worse in some way. A racist is not necessarily a bigot--some racists, for example, can and have ceased being racists in the past. Some may in future. And so forth. This does not occur by magic, but usually because of personal experience, or at any rate, reasoned argument on the subject disproving the racist's point. Of course by now there simply aren't that many non-bigoted racists in the West, so in the West it's probably true to say that most racists are bigots.

A bigot is a person who refuses to listen to views contrary to his own. A person can be a bigot about any number of things. The commonly put example is a bigoted racist but that's just one possibility.

Traditional values, are simply beliefs that are or have been held by a particular cultural group for a long period of time. Such beliefs can be commendable or terrible. A person can be a bigot in so far as he holds to these beliefs, or not. That is a function of his ability and willingness to reason, and the degree of his exposure to well reasoned contrary arguments, rather than a function of his adherence to those beliefs.

Kapich?

[DaShi]

A racist is a person who wears a flower in their hair.

A bigot is a person who drinks water with ice.

Or we could just go with the actual definitions of the words and move the conversation from there.

[MrFun]

I think MF is confused about the meaning of certain words.

A racist is a person who holds ideas about "race" or ethnicity--i.e. that a person's race makes one better or worse in some way. A racist is not necessarily a bigot--some racists, for example, can and have ceased being racists in the past. Some may in future. And so forth. This does not occur by magic, but usually because of personal experience, or at any rate, reasoned argument on the subject disproving the racist's point. Of course by now there simply aren't that many non-bigoted racists in the West, so in the West it's probably true to say that most racists are bigots.

A bigot is a person who refuses to listen to views contrary to his own. A person can be a bigot about any number of things. The commonly put example is a bigoted racist but that's just one possibility.

Traditional values, are simply beliefs that are or have been held by a particular cultural group for a long period of time. Such beliefs can be commendable or terrible. A person can be a bigot in so far as he holds to these beliefs, or not. That is a function of his ability and willingness to reason, and the degree of his exposure to well reasoned contrary arguments, rather than a function of his adherence to those beliefs.

Kapich?

So then if a person thinks that being Jewish is immoral and that Jews are an abomination based on what he thinks are traditional values, it does not necessarily means that he is anti-Semitic.

Just as if a person think that being gay is immoral and that gays are an abomination based on what he thinks is traditional values, it does not necessarily mean that he is homophobic.

Love the sinner, but hate the sin in the belief that Jews can stop flaunting their identity, and convert to Christianity, just as some think that gays should change to become "straight."

[MrFun]

I agree with your statement "Is treating homosexuals differently purely because they are gay acceptable? If you say yes, you are prejudiced."

I don't see how it has to do with the marriage statement. The traditional person would say that a gay man could marry a woman if they wanted to, as such they are not being treated differently.

The issue is 'do you stick with the traditional european definition of marriage, or are you willing to change it'.

Just because many who are not willing to change it are bigots doesn't mean that if you are not willing to change it you are a bigot.

JM

So if a black person was allowed to marry another black person but not a white person, there would be no difference in treating black people from white people.

[MrFun]

See, you are still displaying an inability to see things from a different persons point of view.

JM

I think it was unfair that we did not try to understand Hitler's viewpoint better. We were so bigoted toward him.

[Jon Miller]

I think it was unfair that we did not try to understand Hitler's viewpoint better. We were so bigoted toward him.

I already addressed this. Please be serious.

JM

[MrFun]

As the Joker would say, "Why soooo serious, son?"

[Jon Miller]

I was born this way.

JM

[Egbert]

Is this thread bigoted towards bigots?

[Aeson]

I am bigoted towards Nazis, Poly posters, and fire ants.

[Zevico]

So then if a person thinks that being Jewish is immoral and that Jews are an abomination based on what he thinks are traditional values, it does not necessarily means that he is anti-Semitic.

Rubbish. It does, by definition, mean just that. It doesn't mean that he is necessarily a bigot, because rational people are taught nonsense regularly, including racism. A bigot is a person who is unable to change his beliefs once they have formed on a subject. Racists can and have changed their views about race in the past. Please consult a dictionary if you are confused about the meaning of the word "racist" or "bigot."

Just as if a person think that being gay is immoral and that gays are an abomination based on what he thinks is traditional values, it does not necessarily mean that he is homophobic.

First, one thing that irks me is the use of the word homophobia. It implies fear of gays. But fear does not necessarily mean opposition. Claustrophobic people don't call for the destruction of small enclosed spaces, for example. Prejudice is the word you're looking for.

There are Christians who think non-Christians will go to hell. That includes gays. The question is: is that relevant to their actual behaviour? Apart from a tiny minority, no, because they accept that religion shouldn't be imposed on others. The vast majority of Christians don't. In short: if it doesn't move them to break the law, it's not relevant.

Love the sinner, but hate the sin in the belief that Jews can stop flaunting their identity, and convert to Christianity, just as some think that gays should change to become "straight."

Christians are perfectly entitled to believe that and I see nothing wrong with them doing so if they wish, just as Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, what-have-you are entitled to do the same with regards to their pet hates or loves. There's no need to get riled up about it as long as everyone accepts the game rules (abiding by democratic principles).

[MrFun]

from dictionary.com:

big·ot·ry   
[big-uh-tree] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ries.
1.
stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2.
the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

I guess when I use the word "bigoted" in this thread, I've been thinking of it as based on actions that bigots can partake in, toward people of the targeted group.

[MrFun]

The question is: is that relevant to their actual behaviour? Apart from a tiny minority, no, because they accept that religion shouldn't be imposed on others. The vast majority of Christians don't. In short: if it doesn't move them to break the law, it's not relevant.

And yet, many conservative Christians DO support imposing their beliefs, through quack "psychological" therapy in which they attempt to "change" a person's sexual orientation-based behavior. But for some reason, their desire to impose their beliefs in like manner, does not extend to non-Christian religious people, such as Jews.

Why not provide such "therapy" to Jews, to have them change their behavior to fit more in line with Christians' "traditional" values?

[Ben Kenobi]

And yet, many conservative Christians DO support imposing their beliefs, through quack "psychological" therapy in which they attempt to "change" a person's sexual orientation-based behavior. But for some reason, their desire to impose their beliefs in like manner, does not extend to non-Christian religious people, such as Jews.

Uh, such therapy is done with the consent of the person. Rail on it all you want, but people should be able to get psychological counselling to remove and treat unwanted desires. It can and has been done successfully through the use of science, Mr. Fun.