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  • I suppose you could make the case that living longer means it's more expensive in the long run...but I don't think that's a valid argument considering we're talking about health care.

    Did find this:


    Yes, Prevention is Cheaper Than Treatment
    Don't be misled by recent reports, changes in diet and lifestyle are still the most effective way to lower health-care costs. You'll feel better, too.


    What do the campaign platforms of Sens. Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and Barack Obama have in common? Preventive medicine, and the belief that prevention saves money. But does it?

    Our "health-care system" is primarily a disease-care system. Last year, $2.1 trillion was spent in this country on medical care, or 16.5 percent of the gross national product. And 95 cents of every medical-care dollar went to treat disease after it had already occurred. At least 75 percent of these costs were spent on treating chronic diseases such as heart disease and diabetes that are preventable or even reversible. A RAND study projected nearly $81 billion in annual national health expenditure savings due to prevention and disease-management programs.

    Incentives are often perverse. For example, insurance companies pay more than $30,000 to amputate a diabetic foot even though most amputations are preventable by scrupulous foot care, which is usually not covered by insurance. When I lecture, I often begin by showing a slide of doctors busily mopping up the floor around an overflowing sink, but no one is turning off the faucet. Similarly, Dr. Denis Burkitt (who discovered Burkitt's lymphoma) once said that raising money to pay for ambulances and a hospital at the base of a cliff is not as smart as building a fence at the top to keep cars from falling off.

    It's important to treat not only the problem but also its underlying causes. Otherwise, the same problem often recurs (for example, bypass grafts or angioplastied arteries often clog up again), a new set of problems may occur (such as side effects from medications), or there may be painful choices.

    Our research at the Preventive Medicine Research Institute (PMRI), as well as the studies of other investigators, have shown that your body often has a remarkable capacity to begin healing itself, and much more quickly than had once been realized, when the underlying causes of illness are addressed. For many people, the choices we make each day in what we eat and in how we live are among the most important underlying causes.
    Hillary Clinton's health plan calls for a "focus on prevention: wellness not sickness ... Insurers must cover high priority preventive services that experts agree are proven and effective. This focus on prevention will improve health and lower costs in the long run." John McCain states on his campaign Web site that "We can improve health and spend less, while promoting competition on the cost and quality of care, taking better care of our citizens with chronic illness, and promoting prevention that will keep millions of others from ever developing deadly and debilitating disease." Barack Obama's health plan states, "This nation is facing a true epidemic of chronic disease. An increasing number of Americans are suffering and dying needlessly from diseases such as obesity, diabetes, heart disease, asthma and HIV/AIDS, all of which can be delayed in onset if not prevented entirely." Also, Sen. Ron Wyden has sponsored the Healthy Americans Act, which emphasizes prevention and has bipartisan support.
    Given this consensus, many people were surprised by some recent articles questioning the value of prevention. As David Brown wrote earlier this month in The Washington Post, "Studies show it's often cheaper to let people get sick ... Even when prevention greatly reduces future cases of a particular illness, overall cost to the health-care system typically goes up when lots of disease-preventing strategies are put into practice." For example, he questioned the value of taking cholesterol-lowering drugs:

    Even if this analysis were true--and there are several fallacies in his calculations--it ignores the fact that most people can significantly lower their cholesterol levels and blood pressure by making comprehensive lifestyle changes that are free rather than by taking a lifetime of drugs that are costly. In our research, we found that improved nutrition, moderate exercise, stress-management techniques and social support caused a 40 percent average reduction in harmful LDL-cholesterol levels in men and women during the course of a year without drugs. Last year, more than $20 billion was spent in this country on cholesterol-lowering drugs, so the potential cost savings would be significant if more people made comprehensive lifestyle changes in lieu of drugs.

    A similar but somewhat more balanced perspective was published two months ago in The New England Journal of Medicine. The authors wrote, "Sweeping statements about the cost-saving potential of prevention, however, are overreaching. Studies have concluded that preventing illness can in some cases save money but in other cases can add to health care costs ... In general, whether a particular preventive measure represents good value or poor value depends on factors such as the population targeted, with measures targeting higher-risk populations typically being the most efficient."

    I agree that cost savings can be greatest and can be seen most quickly in those who are at highest risk or who have chronic diseases. For example, my colleagues and I at the nonprofit PMRI conducted a demonstration project in collaboration with eight hospitals to determine if comprehensive lifestyle changes could be a safe and effective alternative to bypass surgery or angioplasty in those who were eligible to receive it. After one year, almost 80 percent of people were able to safely avoid heart surgery or angioplasty, and Mutual of Omaha calculated saving almost $30,000 per patient in the first year. In a second demonstration project with Highmark Blue Cross Blue Shield, these comprehensive lifestyle changes reduced total health-care costs in those with coronary heart disease by 50 percent after only one year and by an additional 20 percent to 30 percent when compared to a matched control group.

    The rapid growth of companies offering personalized genetic testing such as Navigenics, 23&Me and deCODE Genetics, makes it possible to identify people who are at highest risk for chronic disease and to tailor prevention prescriptions to those who most need it. Finding out you're at higher risk for illnesses such as heart disease or diabetes is a powerful motivator for making comprehensive lifestyle changes. Also, those at high risk are more likely to show cost savings from prevention. A Senate bill that would prohibit discrimination based on genetic information is expected to pass this week, so the use of genetic testing is likely to escalate.

    Prevention is also cost-effective in healthier people, although the cost savings per person are not as high. For example, three years ago, Steve Burd, the CEO of Safeway, realized that health-care costs for his employees were rising past Safeway's net income--clearly, not sustainable. We discussed redesigning the corporate health plan for his employees in ways that emphasized prevention and wellness, provided incentives for healthful behaviors, and paid 100 percent of the costs of preventive care. Overall health-care costs decreased by 15 percent in the first year and have remained flat since then. Many other worksite wellness programs have shown cost savings, as well as a happier and more productive workforce.

    In each of these studies, significant savings occurred in the first year--medically effective and cost-effective. Why? Because there is a growing body of scientific evidence showing how much more dynamic our bodies are than had previously been believed.

    When you eat a healthier diet, quit smoking, exercise, meditate and have more love in your life, then your brain receives more blood and oxygen, so you think more clearly, have more energy, need less sleep. You may grow new brain cells. Your face gets more blood flow, so your skin glows more and wrinkles less. Your heart gets more blood flow, so you have more stamina and can even begin to reverse heart disease. Your sexual organs receive more blood flow, so you may become more potent--the same way that drugs like Viagra work. For many people, these are choices worth making--not just to live longer but also to live better.

    In other words, the debate on prevention often misses the point: the mortality rate is still 100 percent, one per person. So, it's not just how long we live but also how well we live. Making comprehensive lifestyle changes significantly improves the quality of life very quickly, which is what makes these changes sustainable and meaningful.
    Last edited by Asher; August 7, 2011, 13:19.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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    • Originally posted by Asher View Post
      I suppose you could make the cast that living longer means it's more expensive in the long run...but I don't think that's a valid argument considering we're talking about health care.

      Did find this:
      http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...treatment.html
      Do you mind limiting yourself to not posting idiotic puff pieces that are written by people who work at the "Preventive Medicine Research Institute"?

      Also, even that idiotic puff piece spends most of its time talking about diet and exercise. No **** those are cheap ways of preventing disease...
      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
      Stadtluft Macht Frei
      Killing it is the new killing it
      Ultima Ratio Regum

      Comment


      • Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
        Do you mind limiting yourself to not posting idiotic puff pieces that are written by people who work at the "Preventive Medicine Research Institute"?
        It cites studies from reputable journals.


        Also, even that idiotic puff piece spends most of its time talking about diet and exercise. No **** those are cheap ways of preventing disease...
        That's one thing regular visits to the GP encourages. I think it's perhaps ones reason the US is so obese...

        My family doctor regularly nagged and scared the **** out of my parents when they got overweight, and now they are extremely healthy and active. I'm pretty sure they'd not have done that if they didn't have the doctor throwing statistics at them and nagging them to do it.
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Asher View Post
          Where would I find that evidence?

          By "illness to present itself" I assume you mean "illness becomes serious". The illness has presented itself if it's discovered in a physical.
          Illness presents itself when it becomes obvious to either the individual or to a doctor without the use of expensive diagnostic techniques.

          GP visits aren't expensive, and the reason many people skip them yearly has absolutely nothing to do with cost. For instance, I haven't had a "routine physical" since I was 16 because I'm too lazy to take 2 hours out of my day to do it.

          If they were a major cost-saver, by the way, insurance companies would require them as a condition of continuing coverage.
          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
          Stadtluft Macht Frei
          Killing it is the new killing it
          Ultima Ratio Regum

          Comment


          • Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
            Illness presents itself when it becomes obvious to either the individual or to a doctor without the use of expensive diagnostic techniques.

            GP visits aren't expensive, and the reason many people skip them yearly has absolutely nothing to do with cost. For instance, I haven't had a "routine physical" since I was 16 because I'm too lazy to take 2 hours out of my day to do it.
            I've never had a physical take 2 hours. It's usually 30 minutes for me...if you can't find 30 minutes every couple years (until you're 35, then every year), then you deserve what you get.

            If they were a major cost-saver, by the way, insurance companies would require them as a condition of continuing coverage.
            But it doesn't matter to them. If costs to them increase, they just raise their rates. Hell, if everyone were healthier there would be less need for insurance...

            Same reason auto insurance in Ontario is out of control and extremely expensive. The insurance industry isn't actually cracking down on rampant fraud...they shrug and raise their rates then blame fraud.
            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Asher View Post
              It cites studies from reputable journals.


              That's one thing regular visits to the GP encourages. I think it's perhaps ones reason the US is so obese...

              My family doctor regularly nagged and scared the **** out of my parents when they got overweight, and now they are extremely healthy and active. I'm pretty sure they'd not have done that if they didn't have the doctor throwing statistics at them and nagging them to do it.
              So now we need doctors to tell us that eating **** foods and not exercising predisposes us to disease? Seriously?

              If you want to include those things in "preventative medicine", then that's one thing. But attempting to bootstrap diet and exercise into an argument for health insurance -> diagnostic screenings -> reduced costs is either obtuse or disingenuous.
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • How can you say you see a gp every year or so and then say you have not seen one in several years. Are you averaging somehow more frequent visits in Canada with your complete lack of visits in the US?
                The question, how often do I usually see my GP? The answer, once a year or so.

                I guess its fortunate that you "feel healthy" though because everyone knows that it's impossible to have an illness or condition that is doing you harm if you "feel healthy"
                I've been sick, maybe once, and beyond that have felt quite well. I guess you're right in that I could be really sick without knowing it but I don't believe that's the case.

                I go to my gp once a year for a physical . She orders bloodwork to check me out as well. It's called preventative medicine.
                Yeah, I agree and I'll probably schedule an appointment with one down here in awhile. More pressing concerns at the moment though.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                  So now we need doctors to tell us that eating **** foods and not exercising predisposes us to disease? Seriously?
                  Yes.

                  If you want to include those things in "preventative medicine", then that's one thing. But attempting to bootstrap diet and exercise into an argument for health insurance -> diagnostic screenings -> reduced costs is either obtuse or disingenuous.
                  It is not at all disingenuous. Diet and exercise is a PART of preventative medicine, and the encouragement to engage in those activities is part of every GP's conversations with patients. They'll encourage you and help you to quit smoking, eat healthier, exercise more, etc. It's shocking how few people can self-motivate for that. Most people know it's bad for them, but they try not to think about it and it takes someone nagging them and scaring them to take action.

                  And it's dirt ****ing cheap to do.
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Asher View Post
                    But it doesn't matter to them. If costs to them increase, they just raise their rates. Hell, if everyone were healthier there would be less need for insurance...
                    This is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say.

                    Insurance companies compete with each other. In particular, insurance companies compete with each other (in the US) mainly at the employer level, and employers are quite sensitive to cost. If there was an insurance plan that could offer identical coverage at a cost 10% lower because it required annual physicals then IT WOULD DESTROY THE COMPETITION.

                    Start ****ing thinking before you post.
                    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                    Stadtluft Macht Frei
                    Killing it is the new killing it
                    Ultima Ratio Regum

                    Comment


                    • There has got to be a term for the economic fallacy where somebody assumes that "the x industry" is a monopoly and therefore has no incentive to act efficiently.
                      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                      Stadtluft Macht Frei
                      Killing it is the new killing it
                      Ultima Ratio Regum

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                        Yeah, I agree and I'll probably schedule an appointment with one down here in awhile. More pressing concerns at the moment though.
                        Such as becoming a legal resident?

                        BTW, some quick googling shows a GP visit without insurance in the US is $100 without bloodwork, $500 with.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                          This is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say.

                          Insurance companies compete with each other. In particular, insurance companies compete with each other (in the US) mainly at the employer level, and employers are quite sensitive to cost. If there was an insurance plan that could offer identical coverage at a cost 10% lower because it required annual physicals then IT WOULD DESTROY THE COMPETITION.

                          Start ****ing thinking before you post.
                          I think it's hilarious you think the insurance companies actually compete in real terms. They compete in the same way that Bell, Rogers, Telus, and Shaw compete in Canada. They all charge absurdly high prices and no one rocks the boat.
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                            There has got to be a term for the economic fallacy where somebody assumes that "the x industry" is a monopoly and therefore has no incentive to act efficiently.
                            How can it be fallacy when it's proven to be a fact? "Don't rock the boat" is a mantra many large companies competing in the same industry love.

                            I'd love to hear your explanation why health care in the US costs twice as much as in Canada if you think the insurance companies are not a major part of the problem.
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                            Comment


                            • Such as becoming a legal resident?
                              As evinced by KH you really are quite retarded. You don't listen to anybody but yourself.

                              I already said, I am a legal resident. But you clearly know more about my life than I do.

                              Oh, and btw, how do you know that I don't already have coverage?
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Asher View Post
                                It is not at all disingenuous. Diet and exercise is a PART of preventative medicine, and the encouragement to engage in those activities is part of every GP's conversations with patients. They'll encourage you and help you to quit smoking, eat healthier, exercise more, etc. It's shocking how few people can self-motivate for that. Most people know it's bad for them, but they try not to think about it and it takes someone nagging them and scaring them to take action.
                                So it's obtuse then. Specifically, my point is that the semantic trick of wrapping up lifestyle into the same category as diagnostic screenings does not allow you to draw conclusions about diagnostic screenings from information about lifestyles.
                                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                                Killing it is the new killing it
                                Ultima Ratio Regum

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