Christianity does not, in fact, connect you to God

[Ben Kenobi]

As I get deeper and deeper into the faith, the more I realize this is true (well, God loves everyone, but if you are really following God, you can't be someone who holds the market over taking care of the poor, needy, and oppressed).

Not an either or question. Making everyone poor, needy and oppressed, is not virtuous. Yes, you should voluntarily contribute to the betterment of your neighbours, but you can't do that without a system that people can profit from. Capitalism isn't perfect but Christ even says, the poor will always be with us. Inequality isn't the enemy, not helping them out when you can, is the enemy.

[dannubis]

Except there have been a lot of studies which show that wealthier people give less charity than less wealthy people.

I mean 'blind' ones, where they invite people in to do a study, give each a certain amount of money, and allow them to give it to others or keep it for themselves/etc.

JM

That is a fact. But if everybody would barely able to make ends meet, you wouldn't even be able to share.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Duh...

What i meant is that it is easier to share with those who are less fortunate if you yourself have more than enough. Private capital enables people to make that choice.

The question becomes are the poor better taken care of in the US or in, say, Belgium? The market is the most efficient way of distributing resources, but if you do not temper its excesses, the poor are left to rot. It is because Western countries decided to mitigate the problems of the market that Marx's predicitions were wrong.

[David Floyd]

As I get deeper and deeper into the faith, the more I realize this is true (well, God loves everyone, but if you are really following God, you can't be someone who holds the market over taking care of the poor, needy, and oppressed).

Couple problems with that:

1)Capitalist states tend to be far more Christian than socialist or communist ones.

2)No one says that you can't support a capitalist system yet still be a charitable person. It also isn't very Christ-like to support a system that FORCES people to help the poor. Christianity is more about free will and choosing to do the right thing rather than being forced to do so, isn't it?

[Imran Siddiqui]

It also isn't very Christ-like to support a system that FORCES people to help the poor.

Why not? The law of the Old Testament required Jews to do things that helped the poor (such as not collect every last piece of wheat). And Jesus really only got mad at religious hypocrites and the people who made money off the poor (tax collectors and money changers).

Christianity is more about free will and choosing to do the right thing rather than being forced to do so, isn't it?

Christianity is about loving God with all your heart and treating your neighbor as yourself. God can see into your heart to determine your intentions, but it is Godly to help the poor.

[Dinner]

Can't we just tell everyone to treat each other fairly without going through all the religious mumbo jumbo? Or do you think people will only do the right thing if they are told hell fire awaits them if they don't? I sure the threat of earthly punishment for law breaking is a fairly hefty deterrent in and of itself.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Besides, there is a difference between those that like capitalism and "Capitalists". As the later is usually defined as owners of the means of production.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Can't we just tell everyone to treat each other fairly without going through all the religious mumbo jumbo?

We can, but I'd prefer not to deny God's role in transforming us and society into people and groups that reject sinful practices such as greed. I thought I knew how to "treat each other fairly" prior to accepting God's love, but it was really a self-serving view that treated some people as objects in the big cog of idealized free-market capitalism.

[Dinner]

Technically couldn't one be a petty producer who owns his own means of production, like a family farm or something, yet still not be a capitalist? Capitalist seems to imply the leveraging or at least the use of capital beyond simply controlling some means of production.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Technically couldn't one be a petty producer who owns his own means of production, like a family farm or something, yet still not be a capitalist? Capitalist seems to imply the leveraging or at least the use of capital beyond simply controlling some means of production.

Fair enough. I'll accept that.

[David Floyd]

Why not? The law of the Old Testament required Jews to do things that helped the poor (such as not collect every last piece of wheat). And Jesus really only got mad at religious hypocrites and the people who made money off the poor (tax collectors and money changers).

The Old Testament also required the stoning of children for disobeying their parents, for example, and the killing of entire populations in conquered lands. Sure you want to go down that road?

And the fact that Jesus got mad at TAX COLLECTORS should be a pretty good sign he wouldn't be in favor of a system that forced everyone to help the poor by means of TAXATION.

Christianity is about loving God with all your heart and treating your neighbor as yourself. God can see into your heart to determine your intentions, but it is Godly to help the poor.

Is it Godly to rob your rich neighbor and give all of his money to the poor?

Besides, there is a difference between those that like capitalism and "Capitalists". As the later is usually defined as owners of the means of production.

And by your own admission, Jesus never "got mad" at the owners of industry or market places, insofar as such things or positions existed at the time.

[Berzerker]

Yeah, Capitalists can't be Christians.

Jesus was a capitalist, one of his moral teachings refers to the land owner paying workers wages based on their worth and asking the question: its my money and land, cant I pay them what I want? On the other hand how does one acquire capital if they're supposed to give it away? Imran probably has it right, Jesus already knew the guy loved money and that was holding him back from committing himself to the word. But Jesus did have wealthy backers and he apparently didn't make the same demand of them, so maybe this was a specific case dealing with the love of money.

[C0ckney]

Jesus wasn't a capitalist or a socialist for that matter. of course it's a bit pointless trying to claim that Jesus was a believer in one system or world view which didn't come into existence until about 1800 years after his death.

[giblets]

Jesus wasn't a capitalist or a socialist for that matter. of course it's a bit pointless trying to claim that Jesus was a believer in one system or world view which didn't come into existence until about 1800 years after his death.

What isn't silly is taking whatever he said about tax collectors in the Roman Empire and using it to decide how taxes should be handled in the United States.

[Berzerker]

Jesus wasn't a capitalist or a socialist for that matter. of course it's a bit pointless trying to claim that Jesus was a believer in one system or world view which didn't come into existence until about 1800 years after his death.

capitalism was around before Jesus was born