Christianity does not, in fact, connect you to God

[Berzerker]

I thought that reacted weird when I entered it

[Al B. Sure!]

I really have no idea. Maybe they're talking about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable...lents_or_minas
though I don't think it's traditionally interpreted as a socioeconomic treatise.

It's certainly not an economic position. It's an example, a metaphor, about the need to utilize what one has to better oneself and enter the Kingdom.

[C0ckney]

Its more complicated today, but capitalism was born the first time somebody produced a surplus and began accumulating "wealth" by selling or trading it... Now its possible Jesus used the existing system in his metaphors about the spiritual aspects of his message without endorsing it, ie land owners and their crops etc, so we couldn't say Jesus endorsed slavery because he used it in a metaphor. But I certainly dont see anything in his teachings that contradict a belief in owning and selling your stuff, he repeatedly used the notion to support a "right" - a property/resource right.

no. trading things is not capitalism. making a profit is not capitalism. property rights are not capitalism. these things happen in a capitalist system but they are not what the word means.

i'll quote from wikipedia

Capitalism is an economic system structured upon the accumulation of capital in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, usually in competitive markets.[1] Income in a capitalist system takes at least two forms, profit on the one hand and wages on the other. There is also a tradition that treats rent, income from the control of natural resources, as a third phenomenon distinct from either of those. In any case, profit is what is received, by virtue of control of the tools of production, by those who provide the capital. Often profits are used to expand an enterprise, thus creating more jobs and wealth. Wages are received by those who provide a service to the enterprise, also known as workers, but do not have an ownership stake in it, and are therefore compensated irrespective of whether the enterprise makes a profit or a loss.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not seeing how that quoted excerpt is any different from some ancient economies like Phoenicia and Carthage or the contemporary Arab trade.

[Berzerker]

Capitalism is an economic system structured upon the accumulation of capital in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit

and I said

capitalism was born the first time somebody produced a surplus and began accumulating "wealth" by selling or trading it...

finding a distinction will take some energetic nitpiticking, but if you think no one before Jesus (or Adam Smith) ever got rich by selling stuff they produced then just how do you explain his rich family?

[Al B. Sure!]

What is this rich family business about with Jesus? Wasn't Joseph a carpenter? I know he had descent from King David but still, he came from a humble background, I thought.

[C0ckney]

berz, errr the point of capitalism is not that the owners of capital produce things themselves, it is that others produce them and that they are paid for them with wages. the owners own the means of production (capital goods) and use these, together with labour to produce consumer goods.

al, come off it. when karl marx talked about the capitalist means of production he wasn't talking about phoenicia or carthage! find me a scholar who claims that these ancient societies were capitalist.

[Berzerker]

What is this rich family business about with Jesus? Wasn't Joseph a carpenter? I know he had descent from King David but still, he came from a humble background, I thought.

Yeah, I'm thinking of Joseph of Arimathea

berz, errr the point of capitalism is not that the owners of capital produce things themselves, it is that others produce them and that they are paid for them with wages. the owners own the means of production (capital goods) and use these, together with labour to produce consumer goods.

Nobody did that before ~AD 1800? Jesus repeatedly used metaphors involving property owners paying other people for their labor. And this notion was not born in Jesus' time either, "capitalism" was born when somebody began accumulating wealth by selling or trading their surplus. Being self employed or hiring a workforce dont matter to that point, the idea started small buts its the same idea nonetheless. The first "workers" would have been the owner, family and friends followed by clan and tribe... People have been engaging in capitalism for eons.

[Kidlicious]

you aint kiddin, he told the wealthy young man who had already obeyed the 10 commandments to give it all away if he wants to join. Course that may have been the price of discipleship

The Young Rich Ruler was like a lot of people because he didn't understand Jesus when Jesus told him to give his money away. The Bible doesn't tell us how to aquire material things or run social systems for that matter because those things are only temporal. Jesus was trying to tell him that he must no longer believe in the temporal but to believe in the eternal.

[C0ckney]

i was responding to the point that you made previously. working for wages is part of a capitalist system, but it is not, in itself, capitalism.

the idea started small buts its the same idea nonetheless. The first "workers" would have been the owner, family and friends followed by clan and tribe... People have been engaging in capitalism for eons.

which is not capitalism! obviously capitalism grew out of what was there previously and it incorporated many things that existed previously, but those things were not capitalism. there are a number of very good historical works on how exactly humanity got from the world of guilds and master craftsmen through to manufacture and finally to what we call capitalism. the wiki article is a decent introduction but the best works on this subject are by marx and engels (personally i prefer engels).

[Berzerker]

The Young Rich Ruler was like a lot of people because hea didn't understand Jesus when Jesus told hkim told give his money away. The Bible doesn't tell us how to aquire material things or run social systems for that matter because those things are only temporal. Jesus was trying to tell him that hea must no longer believe in the temporal but to believe in the eternal.

the guy was a ruler? He must have known Joe of A, but did Jesus make the same demand of his wealthy backers? Thats what I dont get... I mean, lets be fair to the guy, who would give everything away in that situation? I'd need a miracle What did Jesus say about me? Doubting Thomas or scum of the Earth? But by Bible I assume you mean Jesus' teachings and not the whole thing

[Kidlicious]

the guy was a ruler? He must have known Joe of A, but did JWhenesus make the same demand of his wealthy backers? Thats what I dont get... I mean, lets be fair to the guy, who would give everything away in that s you become a Christian you don't kill yourself or make yourself someoneituation? I'd need a miracle What did Jesus say about me? Doubting Thomas or scum of the Earth? But by Bible I assume you mean Jesus' teachings and not the whole thing

How do you know that you would need a miracle until you've been in that situation?

And you can give to God although according to the worldly understanding you are the owner. We call it stewardship. Some are rich and some are poor but God blesses all equally.

[MattBowron]

You know I once heard from one redneck Christian that he thought the holy bible itself was the Mark of the Beast. he called it Roman toilet paper written in **** by a sun-worshipper, who I assume him to mean Constantine

[Nikolai]

Oh that's what they are?

Yep.

[N35t0r]

The Romans didn't use toilet paper.