Children are little ****bags who should be used for baynet practice.

[Ben Kenobi]

In Christianity, sex is for reproduction, right, Ben? No birth control for that reason, right?

Actually Christianity believes that the body is crucial and that sex should be enjoyable and pleasureable. Catholicism argues that sex as a whole without contraception is better, and that contraception hinders rather then promotes sexual pleasure and desire. This is part of what marriage is about, the union of a man and woman in both body and spirit together. It's not just about the spirit as in Platonism, but about the body too.

[David Floyd]

Contraception actually HELPS sex, because everyone knows that sex once children are born becomes, shall we say, much less frequent in most cases.

[loinburger]

Marriage: Have a dozen children or abstain from sex, because otherwise you're committing a sin

[Ben Kenobi]

Do you believe that the priests should be arrested, prosecuted, and if found guilty, put in prison?

The priest himself has two roads. One, where he can submit to leaving his order and the priesthood, and submit to secular discipline. Two, stay on as a priest, and accept the discipline of his order. All priests have orders that they belong to and superiors (bishops), that are responsible for the discipline.

The problem has been with the bishops responsible for enforcing the Church discipline with the priests who they have sheltered. So the priests would stay on as priests and continue to abuse children. This loophole needs to be closed by the retirement of all the bishops who have been responsible for the abuse and sheltering the priests. Discipline within the church order should amount to perpetual house arrest, not leaving in public without another member of the order, and relegation and removal of all responsibilities wrt to the celebration of the mass.

Easier and harsher I think than secular discipline which has a definitive end date.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben in a nutshell - a self-professed expert on something he knows nothing about. You, somebody who has never been married, never had children, and never had sex, somehow knows more about sex than a poster who had been married for years, had three children, and had sex many more times than you ever will. If you don't see the retardation inherent in your position then you're beyond redemption.

Which is why if you have a choice of a condom or a pill you choose the condom? Are you really arguing that you prefer contracepted sex to the real thing?

[Ben Kenobi]

Contraception actually HELPS sex, because everyone knows that sex once children are born becomes, shall we say, much less frequent in most cases.

Which is why you get 12 children. Can't you guys make up your mind? First it's because you stop having sex after one, then it's because you guys can't stop having children!

[David Floyd]

The priest himself has two roads. One, where he can submit to leaving his order and the priesthood, and submit to secular discipline. Two, stay on as a priest, and accept the discipline of his order. All priests have orders that they belong to and superiors (bishops), that are responsible for the discipline.

The problem has been with the bishops responsible for enforcing the Church discipline with the priests who they have sheltered. So the priests would stay on as priests and continue to abuse children. This loophole needs to be closed by the retirement of all the bishops who have been responsible for the abuse and sheltering the priests. Discipline within the church order should amount to perpetual house arrest, not leaving in public without another member of the order, and relegation and removal of all responsibilities wrt to the celebration of the mass.

Easier and harsher I think than secular discipline which has a definitive end date.

So, you think that priests who abuse children should have the option to accept church discipline.

But what you forget is that the Church is absolutely subject to secular law. You can argue that this shouldn't be the case, but you can't argue that it isn't the case. Priests in fact do NOT have the option to choose between the courts and the Church. If the Church chooses to give them that option, then the Church is guilty of various crimes as well. That's how the law works.

So, if you think that the RCC has the ability to grant priests the option of avoiding "secular" courts, then you are not only wrong, but you are also going down a road that WILL result in prison time for Church officials who covered up the crimes committed by priests.

[David Floyd]

Which is why you get 12 children. Can't you guys make up your mind? First it's because you stop having sex after one, then it's because you guys can't stop having children!

"Us guys"? I doubt most people on here would want to associate their opinions with mine. I'm speaking for myself.

I never made the comment that unprotected sex leads to 12 children, although it certainly can. My point is that sex is much more frequent and enjoyable without children around. I have dated women with children, and I have dated women without children, and I can definitely validate that through personal experience. What is your personal experience?

[loinburger]

Which is why if you have a choice of a condom or a pill you choose the condom? Are you really arguing that you prefer contracepted sex to the real thing?

Given your vast experience on the matter, which form of sex do you prefer - with or without the condom?

Which is why you get 12 children. Can't you guys make up your mind? First it's because you stop having sex after one, then it's because you guys can't stop having children!

Those are the two options you leave to married couples - abstinence or more children then they can support.

[Hauldren Collider]

Everyone but Sloww agrees Ben is stupid, so why are you arguing with him, loin?

[David Floyd]

Which is why if you have a choice of a condom or a pill you choose the condom? Are you really arguing that you prefer contracepted sex to the real thing?

The pill IS contraception. Yes, I prefer the pill to condoms. Yes, I prefer condoms to children. Pill > Condoms > Children.

[loinburger]

Everyone but Sloww agrees Ben is stupid, so why are you arguing with him, loin?

I've got an other twenty minutes until my sleeping pill kicks in

[Ben Kenobi]

But what you forget is that the Church is absolutely subject to secular law. You can argue that this shouldn't be the case, but you can't argue that it isn't the case. Priests in fact do NOT have the option to choose between the courts and the Church. If the Church chooses to give them that option, then the Church is guilty of various crimes as well. That's how the law works.

Priests are not necessarily citizens of the countries where they serve. This is part of the problem. Citizens of other countries, (including the Vatican), have different rights and responsibilities in the United States, and that's not getting into the differences between jurisdictions other than the US.

So, if you think that the RCC has the ability to grant priests the option of avoiding "secular" courts, then you are not only wrong, but you are also going down a road that WILL result in prison time for Church officials who covered up the crimes committed by priests.

The problem is mostly solved, at least in America, though there will always be some that come up, unfortunately. Most of the cases were at least 30 years ago and the priests would be well past the age of retirement. By the standards of secular discipline, the cases have already been long past the period where they could be successfully prosecuted.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, I prefer the pill to condoms.

Why?

[Hauldren Collider]

I've got an other twenty minutes until my sleeping pill kicks in

If you are arguing with ben, you don't even need a sleeping pill.