Leaving Afghanistan

[Pax]

The U.S. should restructure it's political and security goals but it should be obvious that a vacuum of power or instability is not in the interest of the U.S. or the western world. That is what caused 9/11. Also, right now the front line in this war maybe Iraq, Afghanistan,israel and etc. But the main goal of Islam is to spread Islam but any means necessary. So we are all the enemy/targets(Even Canada) until the region is stabilized and there is more to lose from going to war with the west than there is to gain.
The U.S. was not even around when this fight started so why is that Western Europeans would think that it's our fight alone.

[dannubis]

Dude. The US has been a prime target for Islamists since the deposition of the Shah in the 70ties. You didn't have to be around on the ground to be a target.

And no, usually we do not tell you to **** off. However, since the last 2 Bush administrations were bat**** insane in terms of foreign policy the Europeans refused to jump, yes.

[Pax]

I'm not a Bush supporter. Those days are over. Once again, this thing has been going on way longer than the 70s. The wars between the west and islam have been going on for a very long time and both sides have been aggressors. The target is on the U.S. now because we are the biggest. Whoever, is the biggest will have a target, so should we all try to stay small to avoid notice, look the other way. No we should as I said find away to coexist that is profitable for both sides.

[C0ckney]

zervico, well done for pointing out that israel has many enemies, although i disagree with much of what you posted (i especially liked tying in the muslim brotherhood with al quaeda, very cute), but i'm not going to get bogged down in all of that. let's get to the point.

Such groups openly declared war on the US

who is us here? you mean australia right...?

This is all just jewish opinion anyway

oh yes, of course. you mean israel.

it's not surprising that a regional power like iran should want to exert its influence in the region and do some very nasty things in the process, the same goes for syria. it's also no surprise that another regional power, israel, should want to resist their efforts to do so, especially on their own doorstep. israel certainly has a lot of enemies and a lot of problems, but irsael's problems are precisely that. israel's. if you want to support israel's foreign policy agenda directly, then you are free to go and join the IDF, but why should australia or britain, the USA or brasil be focused on israel's concerns? the point i'm making is that we shouldn't. the western world should be involved in facilitating a political solution to these problems, not in supporting those who have no interest in peace.

the wider issue is that the overwhelming majority of ordinary palestinians and other arabs want the same things that people in the rest of the world. that is, peace, security, food, work, a future for themselves and their children. in short a decent life. things which israel is denying to the palestinians in gaza with its blockade for example. collectively punishing people is a pretty sure fire way to radicalise them.

[Ben Kenobi]

why should australia or britain, the USA or brasil be focused on israel's concerns?

They are an ally.

overwhelming majority of ordinary palestinians and other arabs want the same things that people in the rest of the world. that is, peace, security, food, work, a future for themselves and their children

If they wanted peace, why did they declare war on Israel, and continue to preach that Israel and the Jews hould be swept into the sea?

[notyoueither]

it's not surprising that a regional power like iran should want to exert its influence in the region and do some very nasty things in the process, the same goes for syria. it's also no surprise that another regional power, israel, should want to resist their efforts to do so, especially on their own doorstep. israel certainly has a lot of enemies and a lot of problems, but irsael's problems are precisely that. israel's. if you want to support israel's foreign policy agenda directly, then you are free to go and join the IDF, but why should australia or britain, the USA or brasil be focused on israel's concerns? the point i'm making is that we shouldn't. the western world should be involved in facilitating a political solution to these problems, not in supporting those who have no interest in peace.

the wider issue is that the overwhelming majority of ordinary palestinians and other arabs want the same things that people in the rest of the world. that is, peace, security, food, work, a future for themselves and their children. in short a decent life. things which israel is denying to the palestinians in gaza with its blockade for example. collectively punishing people is a pretty sure fire way to radicalise them.

I think Israel has demonstrated a desire to make peace with those who will make peace.

And I think Hamas makes mockery of your last bit.

[C0ckney]

perhaps i should have been more clear. israel is interested in peace with the neighbouring states. likewise the neighbouring states are interested in peace with israel. israel is not, however, interested in solving the palestinian issue. instead it prefers to talk about peace and a two state solution while its actions on the ground make that more difficult with each passing day. the western world, and the US in particular, shamefully, are content to play along with this cynical game.

and it doesn't i'm afraid. the concerns of the ordinary man and woman are more or less the same the world over. when you talk about people becoming radicalised, well, it's much easier to become radicalised if you are denied the things that i talked about.

[C0ckney]

let me put it this way nye. if all the money the US currently gives israel in military aid was instead spent on promoting economic development, health and education in the palestinian territories, how much less radical would the population become?

(obviously this assumes that israel first lifts its blockade of gaza).

[rah]

let me put it this way nye. if all the money the US currently gives israel in military aid was instead spent on promoting economic development, health and education in the palestinian territories, how much less radical would the population become?

(obviously this assumes that israel first lifts its blockade of gaza).

I don't know. The Palestinians have been shown to be quite effective in terms of propaganda when indoctrinating the next generation. If that doesn't change, I doubt anything we do would have any impact.

[Ben Kenobi]

israel is not, however, interested in solving the palestinian issue.

Israel already solved the two state solution. The arabs declared war on them, and Israel won.

[C0ckney]

I don't know. The Palestinians have been shown to be quite effective in terms of propaganda when indoctrinating the next generation. If that doesn't change, I doubt anything we do would have any impact.

while it's certainly true that hamas et al produce propaganda. i'm sure that israeli bombs and missiles, the frequent lack of essential supplies and the economic ruin which the isreali blockade has wrought on the palestinians, are more effective at breeding hatred than any propaganda.

if palestinians had access to the things necessary for a decent life then the situation would change enormously.

[rah]

Having watched some of that propaganda, I don't think it would change that much at all.

I used to be as idealist as you and thought that if the Isreali bent over backwards and conceded everything, that it would make a difference. But Hamas's mission is to not to make peace with them but to destroy them and push them into the sea. Until the Palestinian leadership changes it's goals, I don't hold out much hope.

[C0ckney]

i don't think it's bending over backwards to treat people like human beings and not pawns in some geo-political game.

also, i think it's a lot easier to hate when you're hungry, jobless, are subjected to various indignities and humiliations and see no hope for the future.

i have to go to work now, more later.

[rah]

There's always many reasons to hate. Just being different and being told to hate is usually enough. What do you think would happen if Hamas proclaimed to the world Israel's right to existence? That's when things may be different. I'm not holding my breath. I'm not saying that Israel hasn't done some really dumb things, (especially regarding settlements) but at least they're smart enough not to proclaim publicly that their goal is the genocide of the Palestinian people. That difference is the big determining factor for me. But as time goes by, I'm seeing less differences.

[Al B. Sure!]

The U.S. should restructure it's political and security goals but it should be obvious that a vacuum of power or instability is not in the interest of the U.S. or the western world. That is what caused 9/11. Also, right now the front line in this war maybe Iraq, Afghanistan,israel and etc. But the main goal of Islam is to spread Islam but any means necessary. So we are all the enemy/targets(Even Canada) until the region is stabilized and there is more to lose from going to war with the west than there is to gain.
The U.S. was not even around when this fight started so why is that Western Europeans would think that it's our fight alone.

But that's the main goal of Christianity, as well. In fact, one difference between those two faiths is that only Islam accepts Christians, Jews, and (to varying extents) even Hindus, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists as 'people of the book' who are permitted to practice their own faiths. Christianity leaves no room for anyone who doesn't accept Christ. I am, of course, referring to primarily the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam. I can not speak on Shiites and the more backwards interpretations of Sunnah.

The issue is not religion, as much as some people want to turn this into an anti-Islamic crusade. Religion is being used as a tool to recruit and galvanize Muslims for, and give legitimacy to, certain political positions. The leadership of Al Qaeda and its members, even down to the 9/11 hijackers, were not devout Muslims. The 9/11 hijackers, for example, were known to have frequented a strip club the night prior the attack, and, of course, we all have heard of Bin Laden's porn stash. These are not religious Muslims. They are using Islam as an excuse and a cover for their own political purposes, which, include, but are not limited to, the end of Zionist occupation of Palestine, the withdrawal of US military presence from the Middle East, the end of Ba'athism, the end of the Shiite heresy, and the emergence of a union of Arab/Islamic states.

It's not Islam. It's politics wearing the guise of Islam.