Leaving Afghanistan

[Al B. Sure!]

So you did mean an increase in productivity after all? Maybe you shouldn't have called him an "*******" for saying you said that?

What the ****?

He was referring to the industrial revolution. I was never referring to that. What the **** do you not understand?

There, right there he said it:

This is about 200 years before productivity was drastically increased by your "industrial revolution".

[giblets]

I refuse to believe you honestly think some pieces of paper signed by some kings and diplomats was the cause of the vast political changes that would take place and had been taking place long before Westphalia. Westphalia was just the physical culmination.

He would probably attribute it to the Protestant Reformation and the failure of Catholics to repress it, and not attribute it to economics and technology. n b4 you say something about printing presses

[BeBMan]

Just in Germany, you had free imperial cities, free papal cities, fiefs held by various lords, etc. The territory didn't matter so much as who it belonged to.

You could have overlapping lords. Land that was under the jurisdiction of the king, but some was enfoeffed to the Emperor, some was not.

After Westphalia, this all changed. The idea that a nation should be contiguous, etc, merging some of the smaller areas started to take place. Under the previous system this was unnecessary. Subdividing to your heart's content didn't matter.

All great I'd just say "The idea that a state/territory should be contiguous, etc, merging some of the smaller areas started to take place" instead of using "nation" their. Since nations as such (the groups) weren't merged by treaty, they just came under the rule of the guy who was the boss. You seem to write nation for state or territory indeed, which I think is kinda confusing here.

[Al B. Sure!]

He would probably attribute it to the Protestant Reformation and the failure of Catholics to repress it, and not attribute it to economics and technology. n b4 you say something about printing presses

The Protestant Reformation would not have attracted a following if not for the beginnings of literacy associated with the printing press... yes.

[Ben Kenobi]

I refuse to believe you honestly think some pieces of paper signed by some kings and diplomats was the cause of the vast political changes that would take place and had been taking place long before Westphalia. Westphalia was just the physical culmination.

Which is why I believe that some pieces of paper that were unsigned, and written in a language I've never been able to read, are crucial to how I live my life?

[giblets]

Sounds like Gutenberg really changed the world.

[BeBMan]

I refuse to believe you honestly think some pieces of paper signed by some kings and diplomats was the cause of the vast political changes that would take place and had been taking place long before Westphalia. Westphalia was just the physical culmination.

You may say the problems leading to the 30yrs war were there long before, and the fact that they remained unsolved were reason for the war, but the treaty system was literally change you can believe in.

[Ben Kenobi]

they just came under the rule of the guy who was the boss. You seem to write nation for state or territory indeed, which I think is kinda confusing here. een Nation

English sucks for that. English makes the distinction between nation -state as nations (people) becoming states, whereas German has Volk, stadt and reich. Think nation as Volk not Reich.

[Al B. Sure!]

Also, how exactly was absolutism associated with the bourgeoisie? Versailles seems rather aristocratic to me.

Versailles took time to develop. The Absolutist monarchies were fundamentally bourgeoisie states; they were bureaucratic, fielded professional armies composed of commoners, possessed the first parliaments, and were urban-centric.

This alliance between monarchs and the bourgeoisie proved mutually beneficial for over a century but changing conditions in the late 18th century precipitated a divergence in both parties' interests.

This topic is complicated and there's already been confusion between the rise of absolutism in previous centuries and the rise of republicanism so I don't want to add to this confusion and have more of my words misrepresented.

Check Economic Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson.

[Al B. Sure!]

Sounds like Gutenberg really changed the world.

His printing press did, in the context of the times.

Somebody on the wikipedia article for the printing press summed it up nicely:

The rapid economic and socio-cultural development of late medieval society in Europe created favorable intellectual and technological conditions for Gutenberg's invention: the entrepreneurial spirit of emerging capitalism increasingly made its impact on medieval modes of production, fostering economic thinking and improving the efficiency of traditional work-processes.

[BeBMan]

Versailles took time to develop. The Absolutist monarchies were fundamentally bourgeoisie states; they were bureaucratic, fielded professional armies composed of commoners, possessed the first parliaments, and were urban-centric.

There's certainly a rise of bourgeoisie etc. under absolutism, but pre-industrialization most of those Euro countries had still large or even dominant agrarian sectors for long. Bourgeoisie states sounds kinda overdone to me, but depends what they mean - impact in certain fields or overall numerical size.

[Cort Haus]

Hmm, I would have thought that Feudalism's end was not because of the nation state, but because of the development of alternative productive forces on economic grounds.

Al's parochialism can be invoked in cultural arguments, but to throw 'ghetto' abuse at him in this debate seems to be to be an inappropriate ad-hominem attack.

[Al B. Sure!]

Hmm, I would have thought that Feudalism's end was not because of the nation state, but because of the development of alternative productive forces on economic grounds

They keep mistaking the results of historical forces for the causes. Absolutism and the nation-state were the culmination of the factors that led to the decline in feudalism, not the cause of the decline of feudalism!

[Al B. Sure!]

I sarcastically likened Dannubis' conception of history to the game Civilization but (not to segway into a video game discussion), I think the comparison is actually apt.

I have always hated the way Civilization portrays history and social change as top-down and brought on by 'inventing' a cultural 'technology'. Compare it to a game like the Victoria series which does a much better, if imperfect, job of modelling political structure and change as a power struggle between different social factions.

[giblets]

I sarcastically likened Dannubis' conception of history to the game Civilization but (not to segway into a video game discussion), I think the comparison is actually apt.

I have always hated the way Civilization portrays history and social change as top-down and brought on by 'inventing' a cultural 'technology'. Compare it to a game like the Victoria series which does a much better, if imperfect, job of modelling political structure and change as a power struggle between different social factions.

What? Victoria has a tech tree too.