Racist Poster

[Tupac Shakur]

Texas may be making Ben illiterate, like the natives...

[Ben Kenobi]

Hey Halfpac, slowwy's my friend.

[giblets]

Sorry Ben, you don't have a right to not be offended.

[Docfeelgood]

It's little wonder that a stupid Southern racist like Sloww would think Lee is the greatest general ever.

little white boy pretending he is black? is that racist?

[Boris Godunov]

They would have lost, just more slowly. They had to win in the east and force the Yankees to negotiate, probably in the first 6 months of the war. Bottling up and sitting back might have extended the war, but they would still have been defeated. Lee had to fend off the attacks before they got to Richmond, not that much room to maneuver. This is why his sharp offensives were effective at keeping union pressure off of Richmond for as long as it did.

The offensives did nothing to keep the Union off of Richmond that taking up a total defensive posture couldn't have done. Yes, the South probably still would have lost, but the "more slowly" thing was key to any possible victory. The ONLY hope of winning the war was to outlast the Northern resolve to fight it, and the only way to do so would be to deny them any decisive victories. By going on the offensive, Lee gave the North exactly what it needed to win and keep war morale high. Note that every single significant Union victory in the Eastern theater prior to Sherman's March was due to the Union defeating a Confederate offensive attack. The significant CSA victories came by defeating the Union while on defense within their own territory. How can you not see this pattern?

First, it's just a "no duh" part of strategy that if you're the defender against an invading power that has more resources than you, then the only hope you've got is to hunker down and try to outlast them. You engage in harassment and guerrilla warfare, as we did in the Revolution, not marching into their own territory with a large army to fight on open fields. That's just dumb and foolhardy. Second, by actually invading the North, Lee sparked resolve among the Northerners that didn't exist before. It's one thing to have your troops marching off "over there" where your own land and livelihood isn't threatened. But when the South marched into the North, it sparked increased morale, not decreased.

Had Lee just sat back McLellen could have knocked him out altogether. By charging at McLellen, McLellen withdrew back to the north.

McClellan (get his name right if you're going to pretend to know what you're talking about) had proven time and again he wouldn't fight. Hello, the Peninsular Campaign?

He never had strategic initiative at any point of the war. His only chance at winning was a successful offense. When you are small stack you have to go all in if you want to win. You sit back, you are just going to get devoured. Fault him for the hands he made his stands on, but I can understand why he went on the offensive.

I want to play you in Civ if you honestly think that when are a "small stack" you go on the offensive. No--you let the enemy break themselves on your defensive fortifications. How do you think America won the Revolution? Not by invading Britain. You'd be the ****tiest general imaginable. Lee went on the offensive because he was hopelessly arrogant and viewed himself as a potential savior of the South. He wanted to win via glory on the battlefield. Every single one of Lee's offensives failed. That tells you something right there about his skill as a strategist.

True, but he already had Vicksburg and the Emancipation Proclamation. Lee's offensives were irrelevant to the election campaign.

Anyone with a basic understanding of Civil War history would know that the EP was only issued because of the Union stand at Antietam, forcing Lee to withdraw from his ill-considered offensive. Lincoln could not issue it without a victory, as it would be considered a "last shriek of defeat," as Seward noted. Without Lee's stupid offensives, Lincoln never would have been able to issue it. Or at least not without it being seen as a desperate move.

Not without significantly weakening his forces in VA. He had forces in MS and in AL that weren't where they should have been because they did not anticipate them coming at Vicksburg from the South.

No. The CSA defended Virginia just fine during the first couple years of the war with a fraction of the soldiers that Lee used on his offensives. It's another basic aspect of war which you fail to understand, that you can defend with a lot fewer troops than you need to attack. Considering he'd also be saving the massive casualties he endured during those campaigns, his ability to reinforce would have been significant enough to make a difference. And again, the goal should have been to retreat and harass, draw the union into traps, etc. You can't do that moving around large armies on offensives in enemy territory.

[Boris Godunov]

You can repeat it as frequently as you would like, Boris, but you're still wrong. I'm only going to put one reference, because I know facts won't matter to you on this, no many how many sources I cite.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0857371.html

Sloww, something can be a "turning point" without inferring the war would have gone the other way without it. For instance, The Battle of Kursk is often referred to as a turning point of WW2. But any worthwhile historian would acknowledge that the Axis had lost the war well before that point--it was only a turning point in the sense that it was an acceleration of their loss. The same is true for Gettysburg: the South had lost the war by that point, it was just a matter of time. Lee had insured the loss by failing to defend the West and wasting his soldiers on foolish offensives.

[Docfeelgood]

Gettysburg was lost before a shot was fired, due to Lee's supreme incompetence in picking where he was going to fight. Longstreet warned him repeatedly not to engage there, but he didn't listen.

And you just contradicted yourself. If "one more charge" would have won the war for the South, then the decision to not make one more charge was a colossal, unbelievable **** up. Who made that decision? Lee. So, by your own words, Lee made the biggest **** up of the entire war!

I doubt a Southern victory at Gettysburg would have changed the outcome, anyway. As Shelby Foote noted:

"I think that the North fought that war with one hand behind its back...If there had been more Southern victories, and a lot more, the North simply would have brought that other hand out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that War."

There you have it, from a Southerner.

I concur

[SlowwHand]

Congrats, Boris. Doc agrees with you.

[Docfeelgood]

Lee should have listened to Longstreet.
I don't think the south could have won outright, but if they had upset the union at Gettysburg it may have come down to a stalemate.

[SlowwHand]

What Lee should have done was sent J.E.B. Stuart home. ****ing child impersonating a soldier.

[Docfeelgood]

What Lee should have done was sent J.E.B. Stuart home. ****ing child impersonating a soldier.

I have brought you a **** load of empty wagons my general.

[Boris Godunov]

Congrats, Boris. Doc agrees with you.

Which just goes to show, even a complete idiot can see that the South had lost the war by then.

But then Doc goes and contradicts himself in his next post anyway, since a stalemate = Southern victory, so there ya go. He's back on your side.

[Boris Godunov]

What Lee should have done was sent J.E.B. Stuart home. ****ing child impersonating a soldier.

What good would that have done then? The damage of Stuart's absence had been done. And Lee definitely deserves part of the blame for that, as he had not given Stuart particularly clear orders.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yesterday, Cracked.com had an article on this very issue!

6 Civil War Myths everyone believes that are total BS:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19223_6-civil-war-myths-everyone-believes-that-are-total-b.s..html

#2:
If the South Had Done ___________, They Would Have Won

#1:
The American Civil War Was Defined by Brilliant Generals and Strategy

[SlowwHand]

**** you.