Bin Laden To Be Announced As Kiiled

[Demonbinder]

My favorite conspiracy fare of the day:

May 1, 2011: Osama Bin Laden declared dead
May 1, 2003: George W. Bush declares 'Mission Accomplished'
May 1, 1945: Adolf Hitler declared dead
May 1, 1776: The Illuminati brotherhood is formed in Bavaria

Oooooooooooooh!

:lol

[Felch]

That's not correct IMO. Mohammed and a few of his successors exerted both secular and religious authority but for the most part they've been seperate. In fact, there is no central religious 'authority'.

Wahabbi Islam is what Al Qaeda is rooted in. It regards Mohammed, and to a lesser extent his immediate successors, as the only valid source of religious teaching. There's nothing like the Catholic doctrine of Magisterium. There are no priests or saints or anything. There are scholars, but those scholars are not supposed to be creative. In a way, the king is the closest thing to religious authority since he's expected to rule according to the teachings of Islam and be the leader of a virtuous kingdom.

[Boris Godunov]

I could to go upstairs, search through reference books on Islam written by actual experts on the subject such as Prof Bernard Lewis and find other direct quotes from the Koran supporting my position. But why bother? Your ignorance is showing, per usual, and I wont waste my time educating a fool. I would submit that, by definition, the writings of the Koran and Hadith are the tenets of Islam. The fact that some followers of Islam do not follow all the tenets of the religion in question is no different than some catholics using condoms. Nowhere in the Bible or Torah does it say go out and conquer the non-believers (or words to that effect) but it does say that several times in the Koran and Hadith.

I ask you again: Do all Jews want to stone adulterers? The Bible does say to do so, it's part of the central laws of Leviticus. Is the goal of Judaism to execute people for marital infidelity? Is the crux of Judaism to stone people to death? Can someone not be a Jew without believing we must stone adulterers to death, in addition to all the other capital crimes in Leviticus?

When was the last time a Muslim nation attempted to invade and forcibly convert a non-Muslim state? And why should I take the views of Prof. Lewis (if indeed they are as you present them) as more valid than those of Muslim theologians?

The Wikipedia article summarizes Lewis' views on Islam as such:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis#Views_on_Islam

Lewis draws the following conclusions regarding the history of Islamic culture:[42]

1. "At no time did the (Muslim) jurist approve of terrorism. Nor indeed is there any evidence of the use of terrorism (in Islamic tradition)."
2. "Muslims are commanded not to kill women, children, or the aged; not to torture or otherwise ill-treat prisoners; to give fair warning of the opening of hostilities; and to honor agreements."
3. "The emergence of the now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century. It has no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition. It is a pity that those who practice this form of terrorism are not better acquainted with their own religion, and with the culture that grew up under the auspices of that religion."[43]
4. "The fanatical warrior offering his victims the choice of the Koran or the sword is not only untrue, it is impossible."[44]
5. "Generally speaking, however, Muslim toleration of unbelievers and misbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom until the rise of secularism in the 17th century."[45]

Why do you ignore the passages that say that compulsory conversions are forbidden in Islam? Or those just don't count, but these do?

As to any prejudices I may or may not have, perhaps you'd prefer to call me a racist now? It's the typical argument used by the mentally challenged.

You were the one who made a sweeping generalization about Muslim beliefs. If you don't like lying in the bed, don't make it.

[Felch]

Thanks for the superficial analysis. Just because there's a passage in their holy book that says something doesn't mean it's a central tenet to the religion, any moreso than it does for Christianity or Judaism or what have you. I don't see Jews out stoning adulterers these days, you know. And that of course is ignoring the issue of the passage you cited possibly being taken out of context and misinterpreted. Muslim theologians aren't as inclined as you are to take a literal view of it.

It's going to take more than isolating single passages from the Koran to demonstrate there's some sort of widely-held belief among Muslims that they should be conquering the world. While you might hate Muslims to the point you think that's all they want, your prejudices don't reflect reality.

Evangelism is central to Islam and Christianity. It's not a stray comment made in some arcane religious text. It's the entire ****ing point. Islam and Christianity view the world like Civilization with no Space victory. Spreading the one truth about God is the responsibility of every member. It's a matter of acting charitably by saving souls. Most people are sensible enough to know that kindness wins more converts, but the world abounds in retards who think otherwise. If some heads gotta get cracked to do that, then they crack some heads. You seem to think that everybody in the world is smart and rational, but lots of people are stupid and bigoted.

[Boris Godunov]

Evangelism is central to Islam and Christianity. It's not a stray comment made in some arcane religious text. It's the entire ****ing point. Islam and Christianity view the world like Civilization with no Space victory. Spreading the one truth about God is the responsibility of every member. It's a matter of acting charitably by saving souls. Most people are sensible enough to know that kindness wins more converts, but the world abounds in retards who think otherwise. If some heads gotta get cracked to do that, then they crack some heads. You seem to think that everybody in the world is smart and rational, but lots of people are stupid and bigoted.

Evangelism != world conquest, now does it?

Do you think the majority of Muslims want to forcibly conquer the world to spread Islam? I don't, and it seems by your use of "most" you don't either, and that's the point. In fact, I find the notion that they do laughable.

The number of Muslims who have joined AQ are miniscule, and once again, all of their recruitment material focuses on grievances against the U.S. and the west, not "Let's conquer the world!" Why wouldn't their material say that if that was their goal? Why hide it if it's such an appealing prospect to Muslims?

[Boris Godunov]

The irony of this argument is that I view Islam as a religion with as much contempt, if not more, than Christianity et al. But seriously, if we can excuse Christians and Jews for the horrific tenets espoused in their scriptures, we certainly can't hold Muslims to a higher standard.

[Felch]

The number of Muslims who have joined AQ are miniscule, and once again, all of their recruitment material focuses on grievances against the U.S. and the west, not "Let's conquer the world!" Why wouldn't their material say that if that wasn't their goal? Why hide it if it's such an appealing prospect to Muslims?

Because it's unrealistic at the moment. Besides, you never say that you're out for conquest. America wants to control the world, but we don't say so. We're trying to liberate captive territories or fight for the oppressed people of wherever. It's Propaganda 101. And sure enough, AQ says they want to restore Al-Andalus to the light of Islam, and they talk about the oppression of the people under Zionism and the Crusaders. Why does this surprise you? Are you so dense that cynical self-deception is beyond your imagination?

[Boris Godunov]

Because it's unrealistic at the moment. Besides, you never say that you're out for conquest. America wants to control the world, but we don't say so. We're trying to liberate captive territories or fight for the oppressed people of wherever. It's Propaganda 101. And sure enough, AQ says they want to restore Al-Andalus to the light of Islam, and they talk about the oppression of the people under Zionism and the Crusaders. Why does this surprise you? Are you so dense that cynical self-deception is beyond your imagination?

But the U.S. isn't a religious entity. If Islam taught that conquering the world is a good and just thing, and most Muslims supported that idea, then there would be no reason to even try to cover it up, especially in AQ recruiting videos aimed at the ultra-faithful. Again, I'm contending with the notion that Muslims as a group want to conquer the world, which just isn't true.

Why are you guys so intent on avoiding the idea that Muslim extremists are actually being honest in their statements that they are driven by perceived grievances against the U.S. and other Western powers? You know you don't have to believe their point of view is correct while accepting that those are indeed their actual reasons, right?

[SpencerH]

Wahabbi Islam is what Al Qaeda is rooted in. It regards Mohammed, and to a lesser extent his immediate successors, as the only valid source of religious teaching. There's nothing like the Catholic doctrine of Magisterium. There are no priests or saints or anything. There are scholars, but those scholars are not supposed to be creative.

Strange, I thought that's what I said. I guess we agree on this point.

In a way, the king is the closest thing to religious authority since he's expected to rule according to the teachings of Islam and be the leader of a virtuous kingdom.

Which king would that be? Aside from the oil kings, The last Islamic kings of any real note were the Ottoman Sultans and they did not wield any religious power.

[SpencerH]

Evangelism is central to Islam and Christianity. It's not a stray comment made in some arcane religious text. It's the entire ****ing point. Islam and Christianity view the world like Civilization with no Space victory. Spreading the one truth about God is the responsibility of every member. It's a matter of acting charitably by saving souls. Most people are sensible enough to know that kindness wins more converts, but the world abounds in retards who think otherwise. If some heads gotta get cracked to do that, then they crack some heads. You seem to think that everybody in the world is smart and rational, but lots of people are stupid and bigoted.

Again, show me where Christ said it was ok to convert someone by force. Christian perverts may have decided to do so but not at Christ's instigation. The same is not true for the 'words of the prophet' and Islam. To me it is a fundamental difference (no pun intended).

[DaShi]

At the end of the day I think they mainly hate us because our beliefs in freedom and democracy are essentially antithetical to radical Islamic law.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say this seriously before besides Bush.

[Docfeelgood]

fish food

[Docfeelgood]

[Felch]

Strange, I thought that's what I said. I guess we agree on this point.

My point is since Mohammed is the only real authority, and since he was a political and religious leader, then Islam does not distinguish. Obviously it's not true for the Shi'ites, but AQ doesn't view them as Muslim.

Which king would that be? Aside from the oil kings, The last Islamic kings of any real note were the Ottoman Sultans and they did not wield any religious power.

King Abdullah, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques

[Felch]

Again, show me where Christ said it was ok to convert someone by force. Christian perverts may have decided to do so but not at Christ's instigation. The same is not true for the 'words of the prophet' and Islam. To me it is a fundamental difference (no pun intended).

According to Catholicism, living Christians belong to the Church Militant. It refers to the struggle against sin. Those in purgatory are the Church Suffering, and those in heaven are the Church Triumphant. More broadly, Christians agree that they are in a spiritual battle against sin. From a metaphoric viewpoint, Christianity divides the world between those in the grace of the Lord, and those in the darkness of sin. It's expected of Christians to be a light in that darkness. Some people have taken this metaphor literally and used violence to spread Christianity. I'm not saying that all Christians are using violence, nor do I say that all Muslims are violent.