Bin Laden To Be Announced As Kiiled

[SpencerH]

As I said, I'll not continue to discuss Boris's strawmen. It doesn't take any time at all to determine that Jihad is a central tenet of Islam originating from both the Koran and the Hadith. While not the only meaning, the major meaning of Jihad, clearly taken the Hadith, and understood that way through all of Islamic history has been war against unbelievers and the conquest of their lands. One doesnt have to be a 'rocket scientist' to understand that the long term effect of moslem conquest through Jihad is religious conversion. The fact that Islam has not been able to pursue Jihad in the most accepted meaning of the word since the Ottoman Empire is due to their cultural fragmentation and the western worlds overwheming scientific and military superiority rather than from an absence of desire.

[SpencerH]

"I like your Christ but I find your Christians to be totally unlike him." - Gandhi

Its hard for me to bother with arguments about religion though since they all seem to be such negative things over all. Sure, I suppose we could argue over which was more negative then the others but that doesn't sound like an interesting conversation.

Gandhi and I agree. I'm an agnostic atheist but I dont agree that all religions are all bad. Given their influence, I cant see how one can consider political and philosphical arguments without discussing them.

[Felch]

Your point is valid in historical but not practical terms. True political and religious power functionally seperated in Islam fairly early on (cant remember exactly when but early Abbasids sounds right) .

Yeah, but I'm figuring that AQ's ideology is one that glorifies the early days of Islam. Doesn't it make sense that they would regard the separation of religious and political power as the beginning of the corruption of Islam? Their agenda has always been one of restoring the ummah to true and pure Islam. And since Islamic law deals with specific problems of political leadership, it makes sense that these puritans would want political and religious authority back together.

For other Islamic terrorist groups, this isn't necessarily the case. Obviously there are plenty of groups who would separate political and religious authority, but AQ isn't one of them.

Sorry, I dont accept that Abdullah wields religious power. I suppose from your perspective one might argue that he's a close enough fit to the early Caliphs except for the 'will of the people'.

He doesn't, nobody does. All he is is a defender of the faith. My point is that he's as close as you're going to get.

[Felch]

You're not even understanding what's being argued, which was SpencerH's stupid and blatantly incorrect assertion that a fundamental tenet of Islam IS to forcibly conquer the world and force people to Islam. That's what I was arguing against. Furthermore, as it relates to the whole inane "They hate our freedoms!" argument: no, they don't care about our freedoms, because they're too busy being concerned about the festering pile of **** that constitutes the political situations across the current Muslim world.

You are persisting in an argument with me that isn't even really occurring, because you can't grasp what's being argued.

Dude, my bad. I got kind of lost in the fun of arguing for the sake of arguing.

[SlowwHand]

Happens to me all the time.

[SpencerH]

Yeah, but I'm figuring that AQ's ideology is one that glorifies the early days of Islam. Doesn't it make sense that they would regard the separation of religious and political power as the beginning of the corruption of Islam? Their agenda has always been one of restoring the ummah to true and pure Islam. And since Islamic law deals with specific problems of political leadership, it makes sense that these puritans would want political and religious authority back together.

For other Islamic terrorist groups, this isn't necessarily the case. Obviously there are plenty of groups who would separate political and religious authority, but AQ isn't one of them.



He doesn't, nobody does. All he is is a defender of the faith. My point is that he's as close as you're going to get.

Good points.

[Heraclitus]

at 3:13:

where a little bit afraid ... that the attention span challenged Americans where going to completely forget who this man was, so you better kill him off and claim the good guys did before he looses all value ...

[Al B. Sure!]

As I said, I'll not continue to discuss Boris's strawmen. It doesn't take any time at all to determine that Jihad is a central tenet of Islam originating from both the Koran and the Hadith. While not the only meaning, the major meaning of Jihad, clearly taken the Hadith, and understood that way through all of Islamic history has been war against unbelievers and the conquest of their lands. One doesnt have to be a 'rocket scientist' to understand that the long term effect of moslem conquest through Jihad is religious conversion. The fact that Islam has not been able to pursue Jihad in the most accepted meaning of the word since the Ottoman Empire is due to their cultural fragmentation and the western worlds overwheming scientific and military superiority rather than from an absence of desire.

The existence of the Jizya says otherwise.

In Christianity, all must be converted. In Islam, Christians and Jews can retain their faiths. This was historically expanded to Hindus as well, though they are not people of the book.

[Al B. Sure!]

Racist Richard Spencer blabbering on "Obama died 10 years ago and Obama is just a bogeyman for Military-Industrial Complex expansion" conspiracy nonsense with a lot of elitist references to "boobs chanting USA USA" on Russia Today

[Heraclitus]

Alby can you ever comment on anything without going into "USA **** yeah!" or "dat be rasist" mode? Also he didn't say Osama was already dead but that there was some speculation by reputable experts for years that he's dead, which is true.

His point is that regardless of that issue, Osama's death is not a glorious moment, its just aa anticlimax in the story of American decline.

[Al B. Sure!]

Alby can you ever comment on anything without going into "USA **** yeah!" or "dat be rasist" mode? Also he didn't say Osama was already dead but that there was some speculation by reputable experts for years that he's dead, which is true.

His point is that regardless of that issue, Osama's death is not a glorious moment, its just aa anticlimax in the story of American decline.

Hera, you're doing yourself a grave dis-service by getting your knowledge of America from wing-nuts like Spencer when they appear on RUSSIA TODAY!

[Heraclitus]

Hera, you're doing yourself a grave dis-service by getting your knowledge of America from wing-nuts like Spencer when they appear on RUSSIA TODAY!

What's wrong with RT?

[Felch]

The existence of the Jizya says otherwise.

In Christianity, all must be converted. In Islam, Christians and Jews can retain their faiths. This was historically expanded to Hindus as well, though they are not people of the book.

The Jizya and other social pressures have had a long term effect of converting most dhimmis in conquered lands. Many of those who didn't convert migrated to more accepting communities. Compared to modern Western society it is an unacceptable imposition on basic freedoms. But yeah, it's generally better than what medieval Christians were doing.

[Felch]

What's wrong with RT?

You're kidding, right?

[Heraclitus]

The Jizya and other social pressures have had a long term effect of converting most dhimmis in conquered lands. Many of those who didn't convert migrated to more accepting communities. Compared to modern Western society it is an unacceptable imposition on basic freedoms. But yeah, it's generally better than what medieval Christians were doing.

Weren't Jews mostly tolerated minus the occasional pogrom?