No pay, no spray: Firefighters let home burn

[KrazyHorse]

So, $75 + cost of gas + water?

I don't think it costs them those payments at all, FWIW, as long as the fire department charges the guy a sufficiently large fee for showing up there. If anything, publicity of the event would provoke others into buying in who previously did not.

75$ * the number of premiums foregone, actually

One way to estimate this would be to see the number of premium payments the city receives over the next 12 months relative to the number received over the previous 12 months

[KrazyHorse]

Are you telling me any significant number of people from the city would be furious that this guy's home and pets were saved? Are you telling me the # of people upset about this would be greater than the number of people upset that the firefighters picked their asses while a home was destroyed and pets killed?

I'm glad they let it burn and it's not even my money paying for it.

[Asher]

75$ * the number of premiums foregone, actually

One way to estimate this would be to see the number of premium payments the city receives over the next 12 months relative to the number received over the previous 12 months

What premiums would be foregone if the guy got charged a large expense for saving his house because he didn't pay the premium?

Would this not stoke others to pay the premium once word gets out?

In many ways, this could be a net gain for the FD...so long as they get the word out. "This guy didn't pay the $75 premium. We saved his house, but charged him $10000. Pay your damn premiums, or this could be you."

[KrazyHorse]

By the way, there are ~13000 households in Obion County. A 1% increase in premium payment rates (e.g. from 70% to 71%) translates to ~10000$

[KrazyHorse]

What premiums would be foregone if the guy got charged a large expense for saving his house because he didn't pay the premium?

I already explained my objections. If he couldn't pay (fairly likely) then it's equivalent to offering a large discount. Same adverse selection problem. If he could pay, then the city is still under no moral obligation I can see to provide him a service he hasn't contracted for...

[KrazyHorse]

By the way, I'd like to see how easy it would have been for the city to collect tens of thousands of dollars from this douchetard based on some muttered promise to "pay whatever it takes" as his house burns...

[KrazyHorse]

What if he'd called some other town nearby? Would they also have had a moral obligation to come out and save his house? Or does the city of South Fulton somehow gain an additional moral obligation simply because it provided some of his neighbors with this service?

[Asher]

By the way, I'd like to see how easy it would have been for the city to collect tens of thousands of dollars from this douchetard based on some muttered promise to "pay whatever it takes" as his house burns...

Then they should simply legislate the fine. Like the fine for a false alarm that the fire departments charge condos (at least in Toronto). In Toronto, it's $600 if the FD shows up to the condo tower responding to an alarm and there's no fire. (The condo corp passes that on to the owner/tenant responsible).

Whether the man can or cannot pay for it is not really an issue, because it's now a legal fine. No different than not being able to pay a large speeding ticket.

[Asher]

What if he'd called some other town nearby? Would they also have had a moral obligation to come out and save his house? Or does the city of South Fulton somehow gain an additional moral obligation simply because it provided some of his neighbors with this service?

As I said before, my issue with moral obligation lies with the individuals who are capable and present but chose to do nothing.

Which department responds is a legal issue, not a moral one.

[Solomwi]

"This guy didn't pay the $75 premium. We saved his house, but charged him $10000.* Pay your damn premiums, or this could be you."

*Due to general squeamishness at the idea that actions and decisions have consequences, we reduced the charge to $2000, and ultimately collected $48.37, a mounted turkey beard, a half-empty pint of Jack Daniels, and two raccoon carcasses.

[KrazyHorse]

To give some sense of the proportions, the county of Obion has more than ten times as many people in it as the city whose fire department's services they use.

Please bear that in mind, folks. The free rider problem here would be ENORMOUS without a credible deterrent to not paying.

[KrazyHorse]

Then they should simply legislate the fine. Like the fine for a false alarm that the fire departments charge condos (at least in Toronto). In Toronto, it's $600 if the FD shows up to the condo tower responding to an alarm and there's no fire. (The condo corp passes that on to the owner/tenant responsible).

Whether the man can or cannot pay for it is not really an issue, because it's now a legal fine.

Again, the two "they"s are different here. The ones providing the fire service are the people of South Fulton. The ones who have decided not to provide their own with standard municipal services OR to legislate fines or taxes in order to contract out this work are the people of Obion County

[Asher]

To give some sense of the proportions, the county of Obion has more than ten times as many people in it as the city whose fire department's services they use.

Please bear that in mind, folks. The free rider problem here would be ENORMOUS without a credible deterrent to not paying.

If it's such a big problem, the obvious solution would be to refuse service to the county unless they instituted a county-wide levy to pay for the service.

I'm fine with the city not servicing the county AT ALL...because then the county can make other arrangements (volunteer firehalls, etc). My problem is with the men who sat and watched the house burn and did nothing. People should be better than that.

FWIW, something tells me a town of ~2500 people can't sustain a full-time, paid firehall as it is anyway. They probably rely on the premiums from the rural county to pay for much of their costs just to service the city. It's not a case of a generous city reluctantly agreeing to service the rural county.

[Solomwi]

Then they should simply legislate the fine. Like the fine for a false alarm that the fire departments charge condos (at least in Toronto). In Toronto, it's $600 if the FD shows up to the condo tower responding to an alarm and there's no fire. (The condo corp passes that on to the owner/tenant responsible).

Whether the man can or cannot pay for it is not really an issue, because it's now a legal fine. No different than not being able to pay a large speeding ticket.

That legislation would need to already be in place. If you mean legislate it going forward, great, but it still wouldn't have any bearing on this situation.

[KrazyHorse]

As I said before, my issue with moral obligation lies with the individuals who are capable and present but chose to do nothing.

Which department responds is a legal issue, not a moral one.

And if he'd called up the firehouse of Othertown Tenn, would they have been obligated to leave their post and come to rescue his sorry-ass house?

The firefighters of South Fulton are only there, with all their equipment BECAUSE the good people of South Fulton have paid for all their equipment, for the privilege of having firefighters on guard, etc. Those firefighters have no moral right to use any of those things for the benefit of somebody who is trying to sponge off of those expenditures.