Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why would you expect reports of a mundane event?

Because we have evidence that it wasn't a mundane event from Roman sources.

And who would have preserved them?

The same people that wrote about Roman times that we have today.

And why do you find it easier to believe that someone rose from the dead than that someone didn't and people mistakenly believed it the same way people believe in every other alleged miracle?

That's a good question. Why are you so confident arguing from complete silence? The records that we do have all testify that this was a big deal. It wasn't a mundane event. Clearly something happened, why don't we have a Roman source that clearly spells out that the Christians were wrong?

I was on your side gribbler. The evidence is just not there for your position.

[Ben Kenobi]

You were claiming that the evidence for his existence was lacking.

I never claimed this. All I claimed is that the Christian evidence is superior.

[Kitschum]

As 'fragments' they are rather extensive...

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Augustus/Res_Gestae/1*.html

[Ben Kenobi]

Would they also know the oldest extant copy of the Lives by Suetonius? I've been looking for that infromation for awhile, and I can't seem to find any?

[Kitschum]

They? I don't know personally.

[giblets]

That's a good question. Why are you so confident arguing from complete silence? The records that we do have all testify that this was a big deal. It wasn't a mundane event. Clearly something happened, why don't we have a Roman source that clearly spells out that the Christians were wrong?

I was on your side gribbler. The evidence is just not there for your position.

Right... look, there's more evidence for hindu gods consuming milk. But of course you'll keep saying "oh ancient events aren't well documented" while simultaneously claiming we should believe whatever ancient documents have survived.

Your claim that "clearly something happened" is based on the assumption that the gospels are true. If you use "clearly something happened" as evidence for the gospels then you are employing circular reasoning. If the gospels are false then nothing happened except for some rumors of someone seeing him.

[Ben Kenobi]

University of chicago. It's a rather important historical document.

hmm, seems a trip to the library is in order.

[Kitschum]

University of chicago. It's a rather important historical document.

Sure it is, but I'd have to search for the information unless, or you could ask someone from the U of Chicago if you think they know.

I linked to them because they're hosting a transcription of the Latin and Greek texts of Res Gestae Divi Augusti - some of which reconstructed from the other - the chief source of which is literally written in stone on the Monumentum Ancyranum in Ankara shortly after Augustus' death, copying the inscription on his mausoleum in Rome which has been lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumentum_Ancyranum

[Ben Kenobi]

Right... look, there's more evidence for hindu gods consuming milk.

Well of course there would be.

But of course you'll keep saying "oh ancient events aren't well documented"

Are you saying that ancient events should be as well documented as modern events? This is a silly argument.

while simultaneously claiming we should believe whatever ancient documents have survived.

Without evidence to the contrary, yes we should. That's how history works, at least good history anyways. There's plenty of bad history where the facts and the documents don't matter, just the prejudices of today.

[Ben Kenobi]

the chief source of which is literally written in stone on the Monumentum Ancyranum in Ankara shortly after Augustus' death, copying the inscription on his mausoleum in Rome which has been lost.

Copying that, and from one of the other fragments to reconstruct the text. Interesting. I've found the book that I need, but I need to hope beyond hope that it's actually available.

Sometimes I really hate living here.

http://www.amazon.com/Texts-Transmission-Survey-Latin-Classics/dp/0198144563

[Kitschum]

Copying that, and from one of the other fragments to reconstruct the text.

Well, the Greek and Latin, with the same content, are inscribed on the same temple but on different walls.

It's a copy of sorts, but it was inscribed right after he died - in Rome, in Ankara and in other places where it has been less well preserved.

[giblets]

Are you saying that ancient events should be as well documented as modern events? This is a silly argument.

No, I'm claiming that it's silly to make life-changing decisions based on extraordinary claims that have poor documentation when people invent extraordinary stories all the time. "Well, a couple of ancient writers claimed a guy rose from the dead, and they're not contradicted by anyone else, so I'm going to accept every single thing that these ancient writers wrote." Wow.

[Hauldren Collider]

What are you talking about gribbler. Moses lived for 900 years, you hedonistic and sacrilegious mother****er.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, I'm claiming that it's silly to make life-changing decisions based on extraordinary claims

The question is whether or not these 'extraordinary' claims are true. If it's true, it's not silly anymore, is it?

that have poor documentation when people invent extraordinary stories all the time.

Poor documentation relative to what? Lady Gaga's latest meal? Excuse me if I'm rather underwhelmed by your argument that ancient sources clearly must have supportive documentation to match modern ones.

"Well, a couple of ancient writers claimed a guy rose from the dead, and they're not contradicted by anyone else, so I'm going to accept every single thing that these ancient writers wrote.

I'm going to accept their claim, yes, unless there is evidence contrary to what they say. Arguing, "people don't rise from the dead' is begging the question. Yes, it's an extraordinary claim. I would argue that the documentation is extraordinary. I don't think this is a particularly difficult claim given the document evidence of scripture.

Now, you've got a few arguments. You've already used the 'it's a work of fiction', and evaded my point of Pilate who you do believe existed.

Two, you've also argued that you have no problem accepting the current list of emperors based on far more scanty evidence than what's there in the Gospels.

You seem to believe lies so long as they are mundane. Correct?

[giblets]

What are you talking about gribbler. Moses lived for 900 years, you hedonistic and sacrilegious mother****er.

The Bible says 120, and no contradictory source exists, therefore it must be true!