Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

So does God require multiple prayers to believe a cause worthy of his intervention? Why? Is this a democratic God?

No. As I said it is *our* responsibility to pray for each other. God hears all prayers. Whether he chooses to answer them is his prerogative.

And what about determinism? What does prayer do if God has already determined the course of events?

Who says the universe is deterministic? It's not. One answer is that God sees all possible futures. Think of it like a "Choose your own adventure". Our choices determine our own path, but God can see everything that can result from our choices.

[Ben Kenobi]

Since when was sending a message to some supernatural, omniscient entity not a prayer?

Mary isn't omniscient nor is she supernatural,at least not in the sense you understand her as here.

She is with Christ in heaven, as are all the other saints.

[giblets]

Mary isn't omniscient nor is she supernatural,at least not in the sense you understand her as here.

She is with Christ in heaven, as are all the other saints.

Does she hear your prayers or does God hear them and then relay them to her?

[Ben Kenobi]

Wouldn't this lend credence to Islam being a better religion than Christianity? Not as good for placing a Pascal's Wager but more in keeping with a more reasonable and tolerant conception of God?

Which explains why Muslims flew a plane into the WTC, killing 3000 people? In the name of tolerance?

If this is tolerance, then I'd hate to see persecution.

[Ben Kenobi]

Does she hear your prayers or does God hear them and then relay them to her?

The opposite. When we pray asking Mary for help, the holy spirit helps us pray, Christ passes our prayers to her. She then adds her prayer to God with ours.

So God helps us to pray, sends her the prayer, and hears the prayer from Mary and us.

It's the same for any of the other saints. You can ask St. Joseph to pray for you, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc.

[giblets]

Which explains why Muslims flew a plane into the WTC, killing 3000 people? In the name of tolerance?

If this is tolerance, then I'd hate to see persecution.

All you have to do to see persecution is look at the inquisition.

[Al B. Sure!]

Which explains why Muslims flew a plane into the WTC, killing 3000 people? In the name of tolerance?

If this is tolerance, then I'd hate to see persecution.

Inquisition?

[Al B. Sure!]

No. As I said it is *our* responsibility to pray for each other. God hears all prayers. Whether he chooses to answer them is his prerogative.



Who says the universe is deterministic? It's not. One answer is that God sees all possible futures. Think of it like a "Choose your own adventure". Our choices determine our own path, but God can see everything that can result from our choices.

So whether he chooses to answer them is his prerogative... so what's the point of multiple people praying then? It's not going to be received any differently than 1 person praying right? The number of people praying or the involvement or lack of involvement of Mary isn't going to have an effect on God's decision?

[giblets]

The opposite. When we pray asking Mary for help, the holy spirit passes our prayers to her. She then adds her prayer to God with ours.

So God helps us to pray, sends her the prayer, and hears the prayer from Mary and us.

It's the same for any of the other saints. You can ask St. Joseph to pray for you, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc.

So the prayer follows this path:
Ben Kenobi -> God -> Mary -> God

And if Mary adds her prayer to yours, God is more likely to answer it?

That's an awful lot of effort to justify making idols of things that are in heaven. Why not just get rid of it?

[Ben Kenobi]

So whether he chooses to answer them is his prerogative... so what's the point of multiple people praying then? It's not going to be received any differently than 1 person praying right?

Why don't you try and find out? As I said, the universe is not deterministic.

[Hauldren Collider]

Can we have a policy of closing threads that turn into religious/gay debates with BK? We've all been there and done that.

[giblets]

Can we have a policy of closing threads that turn into religious/gay debates with BK? We've all been there and done that.

Better yet, ban him so it doesn't happen.

[Al B. Sure!]

Why don't you try and find out? As I said, the universe is not deterministic.

What? What are you talking about?

I am asking you what is the advantage to having others pray in support of your case? Does it affect God's decision-making at all? Is the prayer of a lone man in the wilderness less important than the prayer of a thousand people and Mary and St. Peter and whoever else? You'll probably say God determines the value of the prayer so what is the purpose of praying for others when God isn't swayed by more people praying?

[Ben Kenobi]

So the prayer follows this path:
Ben Kenobi -> God -> Mary -> God

Close

Althought I think this is better understood as:

Ben Kenobi + God -> God + Mary -> God.

And if Mary adds her prayer to yours, God is more likely to answer it?

Prayer doesn't work that way. You ask her to pray for you, and she will pray for you. Whether God answers the prayer is up to him.

That's an awful lot of effort to justify making idols of things that are in heaven. Why not just get rid of it?

Get rid of what? Mary?

We can pray directly to God through Christ. It works like this:

God + Ben Kenobi -> God -> God.

[Asher]

Ban Ben