The Catholic Church - Ideologically Consistent, and Still Evil

[Asher]

One, I wasn't sure at first he was my brother. I thought he might be, but I had to confirm.

You are lying again.

You said he definitely wasn't your brother because "you asked your brother" and he confirmed it wasn't him. You said this several times.

Lying is a sin.

[Jesus_Christ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/opinion/lweb30kristof.html

In the early 1950s I was in an ethics class at the University of Detroit, a Jesuit school. The issue of “Sister Margaret’s choice” was posed as an ethical dilemma to discuss. What if a mother’s life was in danger if her pregnancy were allowed to continue? What moral considerations would have to be taken into account, the class was asked.

After discussion, it was framed as an issue of competing goods — to save the mother’s life or that of the unborn was the question. The priest summed up by saying that taking the life of the unborn was not the goal, but was needed to realize a greater goal, saving the mother’s life. The intent was moral, to save the mother’s life. Sacrificing the life of the unborn was the means to that end, not an end in itself.

In the situation cited in the column, the mother had four children. The ethical question I would ask is: How would God be honored by having four motherless children? Sister Margaret acted in a real-world situation, as the compassionate Jesus would have, and as my ethics theologian priest would have surely advised.

As a physician who has devoted more than 30 years to treating children and adults with pulmonary hypertension, I am distressed to learn of the excommunication of Sister Margaret McBride.

New treatments for pulmonary hypertension have improved survival rates, and many children and adults now live with the disease far longer than in the past. But pregnancy remains an absolute contraindication for a woman with pulmonary hypertension.

The risk of increased mortality for both the mother and the unborn child is unacceptably high, as is the likelihood of the infant’s having developmental difficulties. If the mother does survive the pregnancy, she is very likely to have a severe and irreversible deterioration in her disease as a direct result of the pregnancy.

I have had the unfortunate experience of caring for four young women who decided to carry their pregnancies to term (despite my recommendation for termination); they all died either during pregnancy, delivery or within the postpartum period.

Sister Margaret was forced to choose between saving the life of a young mother of four and her faith. In my career as a physician, I have been fortunate not to have had to make that choice. Our profession is to facilitate the best care possible for all individuals. No one should be punished for trying to save a life. Something here is clearly wrong.

Bless them.

[Ben Kenobi]

You said he definitely wasn't your brother because "you asked your brother" and he confirmed it wasn't him. You said this several times.

Not a lie. I did in fact talk to my brother, and he confirmed it wasn't him. You guys already knew about him, which is why I said this. What you didn't know is that I had another brother.

Anyways, I have two brothers, and this is the second one, that I don't believe anyone on here has met him yet.

My hands were tied here until we had a chance to talk and confirm that this is what he wanted, so here you go.

[David Floyd]

In theory it should, in practice it does not. Pelosi has passed bills supporting abortion and has not had any sanctions by her bishop.

I'm also pretty sure that the only auto excommunication would be the nun, but I'd have to go check into that again. Auto-excommunication for the most part applies only to the clergy, although in theory anyone can be excommunicated for grevious sins against the Church.

Exactly. Auto-excommunication, whether it applies to the clergy or to everyone, SHOULD APPLY in the case of abortion. Whether or not it always does in practice is irrelevant. Additionally, voting for a bill that you say supports abortion (although that's pejorative arguable, bills don't support abortion, they support choice) isn't the same as performing an abortion. Finally, explain to me why raping a little boy you are responsible for in your position as a member of the clergy does NOT result, either in theory or in practice, in auto-excommunication.

[Asher]

Not a lie. I did in fact talk to my brother, and he confirmed it wasn't him. You guys already knew about him, which is why I said this. What you didn't know is that I had another brother.

Anyways, I have two brothers, and this is the second one, that I don't believe anyone on here has met him yet.

My hands were tied here until we had a chance to talk and confirm that this is what he wanted, so here you go.

You are still lying. More hell for you.

You repeatedly stated under no uncertain terms he was not your brother. Someone was pretending to be your brother. That I was operating his login and pretending to be your brother.

[Ben Kenobi]

Whether or not it always does in practice is irrelevant.

A theoretical threat of excommunication applies to everyone who publicly commits grevious sin. If your argument is that excommunications are automatic in some cases and not in others, then your argument is only against the exercise of excommunication and not the theory.

It's really up the individual bishops, who have considerable latitude.

Additionally, voting for a bill that you say supports abortion (although that's pejorative arguable, bills don't support abortion, they support choice) isn't the same as performing an abortion.

The actual cite from Ming talks about accessories, ie those who were involved in the decision without which the abortion would not have happened. This includes Pelosi, and another other Catholic politician who passes a bill permitting abortions. In theory, they should all be excommunicated. In practice, the bishop has the option not to excommunicate.

Ming's issue really isn't with the whole practice of excommunication, but with Bishop Olmstead. He disagrees with how the Bishop carries out his duties. So he needs to take it up with Bishop Olmstead, because this is his jurisdication in which the abortion occurred.

Finally, explain to me why raping a little boy you are responsible for in your position as a member of the clergy does NOT result, either in theory or in practice, in auto-excommunication.

There have been cases where they have been excommunicated. Again, this is really a question of should bishops be able to exercise latitude with respect to excommunication? I agree that every case should result in excommunication, but I'm not a bishop, so it's not my decision to make.

[Ben Kenobi]

You repeatedly stated under no uncertain terms he was not your brother. Someone was pretending to be your brother. That I was operating his login and pretending to be your brother.

At the time this is what I believed to be the case, until I was able to confirm otherwise.

[Asher]

At the time this is what I believed to be the case, until I was able to confirm otherwise.

You lied because you said you confirmed he was not your brother. You are lying now by denying it.

Bad, bad Christian.

[Ben Kenobi]

How is that a lie? I spoke to that brother and confirmed it was not him.

[giblets]

When you have two brothers "this guy is not my brother" implies that he is not either of your brothers, you twit.

[Zanzozz]

You are still lying. More hell for you.

You repeatedly stated under no uncertain terms he was not your brother. Someone was pretending to be your brother. That I was operating his login and pretending to be your brother.

I do enjoy the fact that for a long period of time, BK thought that since I wasn't his one brother there was no way I could be his brother at all.

[MrFun]

Finally, explain to me why raping a little boy you are responsible for in your position as a member of the clergy does NOT result, either in theory or in practice, in auto-excommunication.

he can't

[Ben Kenobi]

When you have two brothers "this guy is not my brother" implies that he is not either of your brothers, you twit.

At the time I believed he wasn't my brother. I thought it might be brother number 1 playing a prank on me, and it wasn't so I went with Asher playing a prank on me.

But I did the Reagan thing, "trust, but verify", and found that I was wrong.

Unlike some posters I'm perfectly willing to admit when I make mistakes. I'm not going to apologise for being skeptical though. I suspect had the tables been turned everyone here would have done the same thing.

[MrFun]

If I tell you that everyone else is going to go and jump off a cliff, will you do the same thing?

[Ben Kenobi]

Sure.

I'll go jump off a cliff right now if you want me to.