The Catholic Church - Ideologically Consistent, and Still Evil

[MOBIUS]

That's the disturbing part, that he's extended his breeding program to allow rape. He might as well pre-register as a sex offender.

Not to mention the paedophilia register. Clearly if God created girls that reach puberty at around 12 or so, then as far as Ben is concerned they must be old enough to breed.

[Ming]

You are right that they were not attending. I'd argue that if they were, the abortion would not have occurred, and both the mother and the child would be alive today. Unfortunately that didn't occur and the child was killed.

I would argue that you have no basis for such a claim. If you had your wish, they could both be dead.

I think we have different definitions of 'caring'.
I think the incredibly caring statement that she can always get another one in the future shows considerable empathy and tact.

You are also being totally dishonest by applying what somebody else said and giving the impression I said it.

They both do. Next up?

Uhhh... please point out in Catholic law where it says that. It doesn't. Abortion brings excummunication... murder, rape, and other such serious crimes don't. Next!

It's an expert testimony. If he were given access to the patient files, do you have any reason to believe that his opinion would change? Do you believe that if he were the attending physician, that the mother and child would have been both saved instead of one dying?

It could change... His expert testimony is simply an opinion that is not based on all the facts in the case. How can he be sure without actually examining the patient? And if he was the attending physician, there is a chance that both would be dead right now.

I've already said, that in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, that it would be permissible. This case is different.

No it's not different... in both cases mentioned in this thread, the mothers life was in danger. You can ignore that fact all you wish by saying other people who weren't involved in the case agree with you... or you totally ignore the one case because you claim it was politics... yet you quote a bunch of right to life hacks, one of which who isn't even a medical doctor... Using your logic, they can be ignored since it must simply be politics.

The doctors in the best position to provide the best view of the case are the attending doctors, and in both cases, they said the mothers life was in serious danger. But I guess since they disagree with your non medical but faith based opinions, they are wrong.

When I'm sick, I'm going to listen to my doctor, not some religious philosophy hack with no medical degree.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

civnation was more interesting

[David Floyd]

BK, Ming's point is that abortion results in automatic excommunication, whereas rape, child abuse, murder, etc., do not. You gotta admit, that's a little janky, although I think it does provide some insight into the motives of the RCC (those being breeding lots of little new followers who will give them money and breed more new followers).

[rah]

Since being a rapist is probably a genetic trait, it's in the best interest to abort the product of a rape to prevent future rapes.

[MikeH]

Especially if it's the product of a homosexual rape.

[rah]

Yeah, kill two birds with one stone.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ming's point is that abortion results in automatic excommunication, whereas rape, child abuse, murder, etc., do not. You gotta admit, that's a little janky, although I think it does provide some insight into the motives of the RCC (those being breeding lots of little new followers who will give them money and breed more new followers).

So Ming's argument is that everyone who is Catholic who has an abortion, or every Catholic who publicly supports abortion is excommunicated? That's a bit of an untenable position.

There are plenty of people who support abortion openly who are not excommunicated, people like Pelosi, etc. So clearly the 'automatic' excommunication for supporting abortion isn't so automatic.

[Riesstiu IV]

Who is this Ben? Why does he support homosexual rape of children?

[David Floyd]

So Ming's argument is that everyone who is Catholic who has an abortion, or every Catholic who publicly supports abortion is excommunicated? That's a bit of an untenable position.

Are you telling me that participating in an abortion does not result in automatic excommunication, if proven? The article says that it does, although if the article is wrong please correct it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I would argue that you have no basis for such a claim.

Despite my citation of a medical expert in the field of neonatology who asserts that the kid and the mother could have been saved, without the use of extraordinary measures?

If you had your wish, they could both be dead.

True, death is always a possibility. What would you have said if the abortion docter perforated her uterus and killed the mother too?

You are also being totally dishonest by applying what somebody else said and giving the impression I said it.

Goose, gander. You stop doing it, and start quoting me honestly and fairly, and I'll do the same. Deal?

Uhhh... please point out in Catholic law where it says that. It doesn't. Abortion brings excummunication... murder, rape, and other such serious crimes don't. Next!

Erm, yes they do.

Catholics, on the contrary, cannot be excommunicated unless for some personal, grievously offensive act. Here, therefore, it is necessary to state with precision the conditions under which this penalty is incurred. Just as exile presupposes a crime, excommunication presupposes a grievous external fault

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

This would include all of the above.

It could change... His expert testimony is simply an opinion that is not based on all the facts in the case. How can he be sure without actually examining the patient? And if he was the attending physician, there is a chance that both would be dead right now.

He said that unless there are additional complications, ie, the facts on the table as they are and as presented, that there is no danger to the mother, which contradicts your argument that this particular complication, in and of itself is life threatening.

No it's not different

According to Canon law, these cases are different. Ectopic pregnancy when detected is an imminent danger to the life of the mother, because the fallopian tubes will burst if left untreated. Women can and do die from undetected ectopic pregnancies in the first trimester. It's one of the commonest abortion complications, when the doctor misses it altogether upon examination.

... in both cases mentioned in this thread, the mothers life was in danger.

Again, you are begging the question. The question is whether or not the mother's life was in fact in danger at that point in time. The answer to this question, is no.

You can ignore that fact all you wish by saying other people who weren't involved in the case agree with you

A medical expert in the field agrees with me that this condition without other factors does not put the life of the mother at risk. This is very strong evidence in favour of my position. Yes, you've cited the attending physicians, but they've not taken the time to cite complications beyond the one listed to argue for their position. That to me is strong evidence that there are no other complications.

... or you totally ignore the one case because you claim it was politics...

It's irrelevant to this topic, to be honest. What does this one case have to do with an entirely unrelated case? Let's just deal with the one and leave the rest of them out. It doesn't strengthen your argument.

yet you quote a bunch of right to life hacks, one of which who isn't even a medical doctor... Using your logic, they can be ignored since it must simply be politics.

As opposed to you, who hasn't cited anyone's medical opinion who isn't already involved in the case. That's weak evidence because the attending physician is not impartial.

The doctors in the best position to provide the best view of the case are the attending doctors, and in both cases, they said the mothers life was in serious danger. But I guess since they disagree with your non medical but faith based opinions, they are wrong.

They aren't impartial. Open up the files and let them be examined by an impartial body.

When I'm sick, I'm going to listen to my doctor, not some religious philosophy hack with no medical degree.

And if your doctor has a medical opinion opposite to your own, yeah, I'm sure you'd listen to him over yourself. You don't seem the type to accept contrary opinions.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you telling me that participating in an abortion does not result in automatic excommunication, if proven? The article says that it does, although if the article is wrong please correct it.

In theory it should, in practice it does not. Pelosi has passed bills supporting abortion and has not had any sanctions by her bishop.

I'm also pretty sure that the only auto excommunication would be the nun, but I'd have to go check into that again. Auto-excommunication for the most part applies only to the clergy, although in theory anyone can be excommunicated for grevious sins against the Church.

[Ben Kenobi]

"I enthusiastically support Sarah Palin" -Ben K

And there you have it. I've been telling people that my family hates, hates, hates solid conservatives, and now you have evidence for it finally. Everyone seems to assume that my family is as conservative as I am.

So when you going to post your welcome thread?

[Asher]

And there you have it. I've been telling people that my family hates, hates, hates solid conservatives, and now you have evidence for it finally. Everyone seems to assume that my family is as conservative as I am.

So when you going to post your welcome thread?

So now you admit he is your brother, after calling me a liar for many posts?

[Ben Kenobi]

One, I wasn't sure at first he was my brother. I thought he might be, but I had to confirm.

Two, when I was sure, I wasn't sure he wanted me to acknowledge him here.

Three, my other brother has a different login, and this one has never posted here.

Four, you initially claimed that I had apologised to you, which was a lie, until you eventually backtracked and corrected yourself.