The Catholic Church - Ideologically Consistent, and Still Evil

[duke o' york]

So if the husband wanted to keep the child, the child should have been kept alive? We shouldn't force a choice on anybody, least of all someone who wants to raise his child.

Did the husband want to keep it? You are forcing the choice of 'baby or death' upon the mother here. She may have lots of other babies (without using contraception of course) who will grow up to be valuable members of the Catholic church. Why deny her that right? If all life is sacred, why is the child's life more sacred than hers?

I'd be very tempted to say that Catholics should not allowed to be doctors if they are unprepared to adhere to the Hippocratic oath because of their beliefs.

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

[Ming]

Yes, because she is giving life to her children. The children are not responsible for what their father did, and the mother has a chance to have something good come out of a terrible situation.

The only thing that was going to come out of it was the mother and fetuses all dying... based on the majority of real medical opinions.

But gee... in your warped world, not only should she be raped, she should also die for it.

Only in Ben Land...

[dannubis]

Ming I hope you are arguing this with BK for fun. Because you are not going to get an honest response out of him anyway.

[C0ckney]

Yes, because she is giving life to her children. The children are not responsible for what their father did, and the mother has a chance to have something good come out of a terrible situation.

Is it easy? No.

But it's the right thing in my opinion to do.

well everyone has a right to opinion, but yours is crazy. the medicial opinion in her case is that she would not be able to give birth, and would die (together of course with the unborn children). also, even if that were not the case, she's 9 years old(!) and a victim of rape by a family member.

the church is this case has shown an utter lack of humanity, it's disgusting. no right thinking person could agree with their stance here.

Abortion due to rape is very common, among minors, and it is a way for the rapists to cover up their crime.

what are you talking about? the guy was arrested and charged, how is anyone covering up anything.

[MrFun]

I'd wager she's nonplussed about it.

You are ****ed up.

[giblets]

Sr. McBride's excommunication is the latest salvo in a national battle over access to reproductive health care in Catholic hospitals. Between a fifth and a third of all hospital beds in the United States are administered by the Catholic Church. Catholic hospitals provide health care services to the community at large and often receive public funding—but they are not required to offer treatments that conflict with their religious teachings.

If the hospitals are funded by Catholics then they should keep to Catholic principles. End of story.

Damn, Ben can't read. That makes his medical expertise even more impressive.

[MOBIUS]

Laughs at Ben and also laughs at the people still bothering to talk to him after all this time...

[Ben Kenobi]

Nahhh... I just research things from real medical sources... not some pro life or pro catholic propaganda site. Maybe you should try it some time. You might learn something.

What 'real medical sources'?

I found a medical expert, and your 'explanation' is that he's, in your opinion, radical.

Still waiting for real medical sources.

[Asher]

Ben, would you say a rape victim is nonplussed by being raped?

[MOBIUS]

It really is a pity that someone couldn't rape Ben and make him pregnant.

[Ben Kenobi]

Did the husband want to keep it?

Would it matter to you if he did? Let's be honest here. The same people arguing for 'choice' are the first to deny that a woman should keep her baby because the dad wants to raise the kid.

It's not about 'choice' but about 'abortion'. The right to have an abortion, not to choose anything else.

You are forcing the choice of 'baby or death' upon the mother here.

How so? It's not a choice between baby or death. It's a choice between killing or saving her baby. I'm arguing they should have saved her and the baby, rather than killing the baby.

She may have lots of other babies

So it's ok to kill your baby provided you can replace her? That's pretty cold.

(without using contraception of course) who will grow up to be valuable members of the Catholic church. Why deny her that right? If all life is sacred, why is the child's life more sacred than hers?

Because it's not her right to kill someone else. It's not her right to kill her child.

If the child's life were more valuable than hers, they would kill the mother after she gave birth to the child, because the child will go on to perpetuate the race, and the mother is useless.

I'd be very tempted to say that Catholics should not allowed to be doctors if they are unprepared to adhere to the Hippocratic oath because of their beliefs.

I agree, that all doctors should turn in their privileges if they procure an abortion.

[Ming]

Gee... how about the patients doctors... the ones that actually have had a chance to exam the patient and know the medical history of the patient. Not some guy whose opinions are non patient specific and who many in the medical community disagree with... Just because you did a cut and paste job doesn't make him right or an expert.

Plus, I wasn't the one that started off basing my opinions on the case from a non medical doctor like you did.
You were just blowing hot air from some Catholic zealot who doesn't have a medical degree. My comments are based on the attending doctors and those that know the specific case.

[Ben Kenobi]

The actual Oath:

I SWEAR by Apollo the physician, AEsculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation.

TO RECHON him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look up his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according the law of medicine, but to none others.

I WILL FOLLOW that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give a woman a pessary to produce abortion.

WITH PURITY AND WITH HOLINESS I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.

WHATEVER, IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times! But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot!

You seem to want doctors to swear by some 'modern' made-up oath that has nothing to do with the Hippocratic Oath.

[Ben Kenobi]

But gee... in your warped world, not only should she be raped, she should also die for it.

At least I'm not a liar.

I've made my position very clear. Save the mother and the babies. Rape or no rape, it doesn't matter. The sins of the father should not punish his children.

Whether that gets through to you, I don't know. But I've stated what I believe. Feel free to continue to 'quote' me.

[Ben Kenobi]

Plus, I wasn't the one that started off basing my opinions on the case from a non medical doctor like you did.

It's a matter of Ethics and medicine. You did in fact argue that the case was a slam dunk because the committee came to an agreement.

You were just blowing hot air from some Catholic zealot who doesn't have a medical degree. My comments are based on the attending doctors and those that know the specific case.

Right. The attending doctors who said that the woman should be cured of her disease? Her baby isn't a sickness that requires treatment.

I'm going to go with the expert who knows his stuff and doesn't have an agenda to push abortion.