Is the organic food movement the most anti-science social movement out there?

[Aeson]

Not all pesticides are synthetic. BT for example. (Though it can be mixed with synthetics, spreaders, stickers, or other pesticides in retail formulations.)

Overuse or poorly targeted use of antibiotics (and pesticides for that matter) can be a problem because it can make the compound less effective in the future.

[Ecofarm]

That's ridiculous. This shouldn't even be a debate. Even if you could use all the organic material that you have--the animal manures, the human waste, the plant residues--and get them back on the soil, you couldn't feed more than 4 billion people.

It's true, by my guesstimation purely organic production (to include beyond-organic techniques) could support 4-5 billion people without negative social and ecologic impacts. If we are going to support 10 billion, we will need a full-on industrial genetic agriculture machine to support us. Or... we could complete the demographic transition globally and stabilize at ~5 billion with some industrial agriculture.

In addition, if all agriculture were organic, you would have to increase cropland area dramatically, spreading out into marginal areas and cutting down millions of acres of forests.

This ignores beyond-organic techniques such as ecologic agro-forestry and other integrations that would expand wild areas.


Anyway...

When it comes to vegetables, I think the benefits are mostly ecologic (trace nutrition existing but being marginal at best). Local is really where the flavor is at, since sugar-based flavors (carrots, corn, tomatoes) start converting to carbs as soon as they are harvested and large-scale operations select for uniformity and shelf-life not flavor or nutrients. In fact, small-scale selection probably does as much for nutrients as organic when it comes to plants. When it comes to animal products and byproducts, personal health benefits are apparent.



We should also note that Borlaug and his work ("The Skeptical Environmentalist") have been discredited by the vast majority of scientists and scientific bodies, including being denounced by the scientific consensus of his own country and sacked from government office.

Using his quotes is monumentally weak, Drake. Trolling with him is so, like, decades ago. First Drake says Carson caused malarial outbreaks, then he quotes Borlaug; does he know anything about environmental issues? He just completely invents or regurgitates whatever fits his agenda in areas where he is a total idiot? Seriously? It's 2010 and he's starting threads based on Borlaug; it's downright pathetic.

[giblets]

Why should we plan on making the size of the population conform to a specific set of agricultural methods, instead of picking the agricultural methods that will work for the population we have?

I don't see how you can limit the population without employing totalitarian methods. So conventional farming is here to stay, unless you want a government that can control people's parenting decisions.

[Kidlicious]

Oh jesus kid, we have about 60 years of empirical evidence that agricultural pesticides and fertilizer do not make our food lethal.

liar

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/health...#healtheffects

[Kidlicious]

Folks like you made me very well paid.

Blessed are the meek

[Kidlicious]

I don't see how you can limit the population without employing totalitarian methods.

Seriously? Just end several incentives.

[Ben Kenobi]

Or... we could complete the demographic transition globally and stabilize at ~5 billion with some industrial agriculture

So are you one of the 2 billion people that will voluntarily off themselves?

[Hauldren Collider]

liar

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/health...#healtheffects

That's not empirical evidence. The fact that my parents and their parents and my friend's parents and my friend's grandparents have all been eating such food for their entire lives generally without adverse effects is empirical evidence.

[Hauldren Collider]

Seriously? Just end several incentives.

wut

I think kid just recommended the government end incentives to stay alive

[Kidlicious]

That's not empirical evidence. The fact that my parents and their parents and my friend's parents and my friend's grandparents have all been eating such food for their entire lives generally without adverse effects is empirical evidence.

If that were true you should thank the gubmint for regulating them properly. I for one don't take that chance.

btw, aren't you a teenager? It's really starting to show. You have a lot to learn.

[giblets]

Seriously? Just end several incentives.

what incentives to have children are we talking about, and how do you know they are that effective?

[Drake Tungsten]

We should also note that Borlaug and his work ("The Skeptical Environmentalist") have been discredited by the vast majority of scientists and scientific bodies, including being denounced by the scientific consensus of his own country and sacked from government office.

Using his quotes is monumentally weak, Drake. Trolling with him is so, like, decades ago. First Drake says Carson caused malarial outbreaks, then he quotes Borlaug; does he know anything about environmental issues? He just completely invents or regurgitates whatever fits his agenda in areas where he is a total idiot? Seriously? It's 2010 and he's starting threads based on Borlaug; it's downright pathetic.

Norman Borlaug and Bjørn Lomborg are completely different people, you epic ******. Borlaug was from Iowa; Lomborg is from Denmark. Borlaug was the father of the Green Revolution; Lomborg wrote The Skeptical Environmentalist. Borlaug died at 95 in 2009; Lomborg is 45 and still alive.

You really are one of the stupidest people on this forum, and that's saying something.

[Drake Tungsten]

btw, aren't you a teenager? It's really starting to show. You have a lot to learn.

Pathetic old men don't get to lecture teenagers.

[Kuciwalker]

HC is way, way smarter than Kid, in addition to being more knowledgeable.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Organic meat is an interesting one. Try a blind tasting of factory-farmed pork compared to wild boar. If you can't taste the difference, repeat the test on another subject who doesn't drink bleach daily.

This is because "organic" in meat isn't just about additives.