CanPol: National Unity and Climate Change Edition

[notyoueither]

So in other words we really don't know how well the process works yet. Gee, sounds like a reason to be skeptical.

It's been tested earlier.

What is so hard to understand? Flubber outlined it earlier.

They strip the surface off. They dig up the chunks consisting of sand and oil and treat it to get the oil out. They put the sand back into the area stripped. They take the earlier stripped soil and cover the sand up. They plant trees, shrubs, and let nature take it's course.

This is not building the great Pyramids or splitting the atom. It's a huge sand box.

What is so hard to understand?

[Asher]

The Albertan paranoia rivals that of Quebecers. If this is the reaction to someone that supports your province's position I see some tough days ahead.

It's not paranoia, dude. It's all over the place in the national newspapers, TV shows, and it's even bull**** regurgitated by usually respectable, educated posters on sites like this.

The oil sands have been the victim of an immense smear job by the ignorant masses -- almost always people from Ontario -- and people keep citing bull**** to support their own bull****. It's an incestuous web of bull**** with no real connection to reality.

[Wezil]

Btw, way to advocate for your cause. This supporter is walking away from the discussion thinking "fu***rs"

[Asher]

Okay NYE.

The oil sands are beautiful. In fact, I'm considering a trip to Alberta to take in the wonder of it all personally. While there I will be sure to check out the pristine reclaimed lands and write all my friends in Ontario to tell them how you just can't tell there was any mining there at all.

I'd hate to spread untruths.

Again, no one is saying the oil sands are beautiful. We're saying the stuff you're citing is bull****, propaganda, and misleading. You cited clearly doctored photos, you've quoted articles with mind-bogglingly obvious impossibilities, and you've cited people whose only credentials are bit parts on Canadian TV shows and volunteer op-ed contributions to internet-only US left-wing news organizations.

Don't get upset when people call you on bull****, even if you're just the messenger.

Btw, way to advocate for your cause. This supporter is walking away from the discussion thinking "fu***rs"

You have a bizarre definition of 'supporter' given the stuff you've been posting in this thread.

Reminds me of the time I was supporting women's rights by posting a bunch of sexist comments people like Ben make.

[Asher]

Here's actual, official data regarding reclamation status.

http://www3.gov.ab.ca/env/soe/land_indicators/41_oilsands_reclamation.html

A lot of environmental organizations look at this graph and cry bloody murder. But it is the case, 100% of the time, that once a mine is no longer active (eg, it has been exhausted) it is reclaimed. As the initial operations are starting to age, more are starting to be reclaimed. The vast majority are, of course, still active but they will eventually become exhausted and reclaimed like the original ones were.

As for what technically constitutes reclamation:

What is reclamation?

Reclamation, in the context of oil sands mining, is the term used to describe the three phases of reclamation of boreal forest ecosystems following mining operations.

The first phase is the placement of the subsoil on the various mine substrates that have been contoured to the desired landscape design (if applicable). The depth of replaced subsoil depends on the quality of the underlying substrate (overburden, tailings).

The second phase is the placement of the coversoil to various depths according to the applicable reclamation prescriptions. Mixes of mineral soil and peat can be used to provide a suitable growing medium, as can salvaged upland surface soil.

The third phase is the revegetation and/or reforestation phase, which is undertaken shortly after the second phase.

The operator monitors lands that have completed all three phases of reclamation. The operator can apply for a reclamation certificate when they are satisfied that the reclaimed land will meet the specific reclamation certification criteria for that landform.

Reclamation also includes lands that are considered temporary reclamation, where further disturbance or reclamation will occur. These areas usually form a very small proportion of the total mine reclamation area.

[notyoueither]

Okay NYE.

The oil sands are beautiful.

No, they are not. But they are no uglier than other areas where intensive surface mining is being conducted.

The majority of them would be a good sight better looking, as the oil bearing layer is deeper so they pump steam into the ground and suck the oil out more akin to a conventional well. They have to build fences to keep the deer out.

In fact, I'm considering a trip to Alberta to take in the wonder of it all personally. While there I will be sure to check out the pristine reclaimed lands and write all my friends in Ontario to tell them how you just can't tell there was any mining there at all.

I'd hate to spread untruths.

I see no ackowledgement to this point that you even recognise that what you have posted are images and words from what amount to poor Soviet propaganda. The gamma and the numbers are wrong. Have you ever seen a stand of lime green spruce?

[Asher]

There are several massive PDFs publicly available that've been done over the decades by universities and researchers into mine reclamations. This isn't some cowboy 'science', it's been studied in depth and there's been many, many mines of all kinds around the world that've been successfully reclaimed. There's no reason to be skeptic.

http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/rp/rppdf/a01-014.pdf

[notyoueither]

Btw, way to advocate for your cause. This supporter is walking away from the discussion thinking "fu***rs"

What would you be saying to someone who wanted to critique trucking by citing fanatics who want to shut down the trucking industry based in Ontario because the trucks make a mess, and he is persistent about it?

[Ben Kenobi]

I think NYE has done a fine job of explaining it. The tar sands are a blessing.

[Asher]

I think NYE has done a fine job of explaining it. The tar sands are a blessing.

[notyoueither]

What is Greenpeace's number?

[Flubber]

Okay NYE.

The oil sands are beautiful. In fact, I'm considering a trip to Alberta to take in the wonder of it all personally. .

Sarcasm sarcasm

Okay NYE.

While there I will be sure to check out the pristine reclaimed lands and write all my friends in Ontario to tell them how you just can't tell there was any mining there at all.

Sarcasm again but likely somewhat true. You aren't going to have a 30 year old tree but but scrub and grasses and bush should be much the same.

[Flubber]

Also wezil I don't see your complaint about how you have beern treated as a "supporter". Nye and I have politely disagreed and asher has been his usual enthusiastic debater with abuse generally aimed at your sources and not at you.

I know I found the tens of thousands of km a bit bizarre and was glad to see it so quickly debunked

[Wezil]

Good luck with your arguments down the road guys. I can see why you have such massive opposition.

[Wezil]

If in order to be a supporter of the oil sands you must believe they are beautiful and 100% reclaimable then you will have a very difficult time garnering "supporters" in this province. Our pay cheques aren't signed by Syncrude.

I'm on board and will spread your gospel but I expect to hear many belly laughs when I state it.