CanPol: National Unity and Climate Change Edition

[Wezil]

Where are the histrionics about James Bay?

I was critical of the flooding required by the James Bay project. Particularly since it wasn't the Quebec government's land to flood in the first place.

[Wezil]

Less bio-diversity. The displaced don't check into the local Holiday Inn and wait for their habitat to be restored.

The areas mined are not that large, Wezil.

The critters will easily repopulate it after reclamation.

I guess that still remains to be seen.

There is also the issue of the tailing ponds. Very large, very toxic, and hard to "reclaim".

[notyoueither]

I was critical of the flooding required by the James Bay project. Particularly since it wasn't the Quebec government's land to flood in the first place.

Not just you, Wezil.

There seem to be different standards being applied here by a wide range of interests.

The bottom line is that the ecological damage being caused by the tarsands being surface mined impacts less land than major hydro projects in several areas, but unlike the surface mined oilsands there is no plan for rehabilitation since the entire point is to permanently flood the areas.

So neither you nor anyone else have very convincing arguments to shut down the tarsands on this basis unless the goal is to shut down a lot of other developments in a lot of places. Good luck with that.

[notyoueither]

I guess that still remains to be seen.

There is also the issue of the tailing ponds. Very large, very toxic, and hard to "reclaim".

The sludge settles and can be gathered and disposed of.

They are little different from ponds near pulp mills and mines elsewhere.

[Wezil]

So neither you nor anyone else have very convincing arguments to shut down the tarsands on this basis unless the goal is to shut down a lot of other developments in a lot of places. Good luck with that.

I haven't made an argument to shut them down. My clients are in the trucking industry. We want lots of oil. Preferably cheap oil.

[notyoueither]

I haven't made an argument to shut them down. My clients are in the trucking industry. We want lots of oil. Preferably cheap oil.

Unfortunately, shutting them down seems to be the goal of some of those with whom you seem to agree.

You share the same talking points, and the same ignorance of what is actually happening.

[Wezil]

The only claim I have made is that the tar sands are ugly. How many times do we have to go through this?

I also said I was skeptical about reclamation efforts. The sources I've seen claim less than 2% has been reclaimed (and 0% of the tailings). Until you show me some serious counter-evidence I shall remain skeptical on that front.

Where's my ignorance NYE?

[Asher]

The only claim I have made is that the tar sands are ugly. How many times do we have to go through this?

I also said I was skeptical about reclamation efforts. The sources I've seen claim less than 2% has been reclaimed (and 0% of the tailings). Until you show me some serious counter-evidence I shall remain skeptical on that front.

Where's my ignorance NYE?

Well, for starters the claim that 0% of the tailings have been reclaimed when there's evidence of at least one being reclaimed (with pictures) in this very thread. Then there's the also obvious bull**** criteria for which people constitute reclaimed -- IIRC, those environmental rights groups only constitute something as 'reclaimed' as when it is virtually identical to the ecosystem before mining, which is a process that takes decades so it would be not at all unsurprising to hear only 2% of the mines from the last few decades are considered 'reclaimed'.



And sorry, Wezil, but "Jim Ramphal" from some site no one has ever heard of with zero citations is not a credible source. I googled his name and it turns out he's a part-time actor, part time op-ed contributer to the Huffington Post. And he lives in Toronto. He is truly a world-wide expert in Alberta oil sands.

[notyoueither]

The only claim I have made is that the tar sands are ugly. How many times do we have to go through this?

I also said I was skeptical about reclamation efforts. The sources I've seen claim less than 2% has been reclaimed (and 0% of the tailings). Until you show me some serious counter-evidence I shall remain skeptical on that front.

Where's my ignorance NYE?

You quoted a source that claims that tens of thousands of square kilometers have been despoiled. The only problem is that the total area that is surface minable is roughly 34% of a single ten of thousands of kilometers, and only a fraction of that has been touched to date.

The ignorance is not having any idea of the scale and the nature of the development, and then mindlessly repeating what you are fed.

People are shown a map of the total area of oilsands, a hundred thousand plus square kilometers in three large blobs spread across Northern Alberta and into Western Saskatchewan, then they show doctored photographs such as you first linked, and then they make the connection that Alberta makes a good stand-in for Mordor.

[Wezil]

And sorry, Wezil, but "Jim Ramphal" from some site no one has ever heard of with zero citations is not a credible source.

I knew this was coming.

Syncrude however is to be believed? Can you in your wildest imaginations see them saying anything other than what they do?

[Wezil]

The Albertan paranoia rivals that of Quebecers. If this is the reaction to someone that supports your province's position I see some tough days ahead.

[notyoueither]

Well, for starters the claim that 0% of the tailings have been reclaimed when there's evidence of at least one being reclaimed (with pictures) in this very thread. Then there's the also obvious bull**** criteria for which people constitute reclaimed -- IIRC, those environmental rights groups only constitute something as 'reclaimed' as when it is virtually identical to the ecosystem before mining, which is a process that takes decades so it would be not at all unsurprising to hear only 2% of the mines from the last few decades are considered 'reclaimed'.

The original plots of Syncrude and Suncor first began development in the late sixties and early seveties. Those plots were part of the development for decades. It then takes a couple decades to recover them.

Strange that the first land is coming back as having been reclaimed roughly about the time you would expect the first areas dug up to gain that status.

[Wezil]

The original plots of Syncrude and Suncor first began development in the late sixties and early seveties. Those plots were part of the development for decades. It then takes a couple decades to recover them.

Strange that the first land is coming back as having been reclaimed roughly about the time you would expect the first areas dug up to gain that status.

So in other words we really don't know how well the process works yet. Gee, sounds like a reason to be skeptical.

[notyoueither]

The Albertan paranoia rivals that of Quebecers. If this is the reaction to someone that supports your province's position I see some tough days ahead.

What kind of crap is this?

'Supports your province's position' consists of mindlessly lapping up and repeating the crap that is spewed in efforts to shut the oilsands down?

[Wezil]

Okay NYE.

The oil sands are beautiful. In fact, I'm considering a trip to Alberta to take in the wonder of it all personally. While there I will be sure to check out the pristine reclaimed lands and write all my friends in Ontario to tell them how you just can't tell there was any mining there at all.

I'd hate to spread untruths.