If you die and go to hell and somebody goes back in time and kills your parents before you were born

[Boris Godunov]

Right... so how can you reject Cardinal O'Connor's suggestion that Universal Salvation may be correct based on the fact that it conflicts with Catholic teachings, while you yourself assert Hell is merely separation from God, which also conflicts with Catholic teachings?

[Ben Kenobi]

you yourself assert Hell is merely separation from God, which also conflicts with Catholic teachings?

What you wrote:

Only unbelievers go to hell, which is simply, 'eternal separation' from God.

God gives us all a choice, to accept him or reject him. If we choose to reject him, then he gives us what we've chosen, an eternity without him.

What I said. I did not use the word merely. I personally believe that eternal separation from God is an enormous punishment. I believe that the unrestrained human instinct would be incredibly evil and that to live in such a world for all eternity would in fact be torture.

This is the atttitude I was correcting, the primary torture in Hell is from eternal separation, not from physical pain.

Now, here's the question for you. I'm not a Cardinal. Don't you consider it sad that a Cardinal would be so wrong about the Catecism?

[Boris Godunov]

What you wrote:
This is the atttitude I was correcting, the primary torture in Hell is from eternal separation, not from physical pain.

Then I have to *****slap you again for so utterly missing the point of what I was saying. If you accept that Hell involves eternal torture, even if that's secondary in your mind to separation from God, then your initial claim of me "misunderstanding" is even more inane.

I couldn't care less about "separation from God" as a punishment. Indeed, the Church knows this, and that's why they had to turn Hell into a sadistic torture chamber, because they can't scare people into believing what they want otherwise.

The only reason the idea of Hell has any hold over the imagination is because of the idea that it's essentially a dungeon of horrors. The separation-from-God aspect of it certainly isn't what makes most believers afraid of it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Then I have to *****slap you again for so utterly missing the point of what I was saying. If you accept that Hell involves eternal torture, even if that's secondary in your mind to separation from God, then your initial claim of me "misunderstanding" is even more inane.

The charge I was railing against is this entire notion of 'universal salvation.' Clearly Imran understood my point. I considered the issue of 'torture' per se to be an ancillary point.

I couldn't care less about "separation from God" as a punishment.

This is also why I made it such a point to get in your grill about it. I understand you don't consider it a punishment. I dearly hope that you change your mind.

Indeed, the Church knows this, and that's why they had to turn Hell into a sadistic torture chamber, because they can't scare people into believing what they want otherwise.

Despite the fact that the Catechism clearly mentions that the worst suffering is from eternal separation from God? It's right there Boris. Obviously the Church wants to drive home the same point I'm trying to drive home.

The only reason the idea of Hell has any hold over the imagination is because of the idea that it's essentially a dungeon of horrors. The separation-from-God aspect of it certianly isn't what makes most believers afraid of it.

You mock what you don't understand. Why do you think that believers wouldn't be afraid of being taken away from him? The only joy at all in this world is from him. and I am gradually coming to understand this point. When there is no light in the world, he is there.

[MOBIUS]

Yes, because calling somebody a classy poster and linking to a thread as evidence is equivalent to calling somebody a liar, in need of medication (but obviously just penicillin!), and the most boring poster. Please go away. You had ample opportunity to demonstrate remorse for your shameless and malicious attacks on me of late but you missed the boat due in all likelihood to having no remorse whatsoever - instead you offered nothing but empty justifications for your indefensible actions.

Lori, I agree to stop posting in any thread started by rah. I would like rah to stop posting in any thread started by me. If either of us breaks this agreement then please ban the offending party for at least a week.

Mate, if you're willing to wait a while, I can kill rah for you? That will put him out of your misery for you.

It might take a long time though because I promised to kill Ben first and then all the Catholics in the world, so I could be busy for a bit finding all the stakes with which to burn at least a billion or so people, as that was my suggested method of offing them.

If you don't see me after this post, it's because Lori has banned me again for issuing what are quite clearly serious and premeditated death threats...

In fact, perhaps I should kill him before starting on Ben and the Catholics...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Now, here's the question for you. I'm not a Cardinal. Don't you consider it sad that a Cardinal would be so wrong about the Catecism?

If he becomes Pope, then you'll have to follow his ideas

[Boris Godunov]

The charge I was railing against is this entire notion of 'universal salvation.' Clearly Imran understood my point. I considered the issue of 'torture' per se to be an ancillary point.

Whatever you considered it doesn't matter, because that's clearly not what I considered it before you started claiming I was misunderstanding something.

I understand you don't consider it a punishment.

THEN WHY THE HELL DID YOU EVEN BRING IT UP TO ME???? Aaaaarghhhhhhhh...

Despite the fact that the Catechism clearly mentions that the worst suffering is from eternal separation from God? It's right there Boris. Obviously the Church wants to drive home the same point I'm trying to drive home.

That's not relevant to the point that for the vast majority of people, it's the idea of eternal torture that grabs them about Hell, not just being separated from God. If the Church doctrine had always been "Hell isn't a bad place, but you're separated from God," it would illicit a big shrug from most people. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia agrees with this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Nor can it be said: the wicked will be punished, but not by any positive infliction: for either death will be the end of their existence, or, forfeiting the rich reward of the good, they will enjoy some lesser degree of happiness. These are arbitrary and vain subterfuges, unsupported by any sound reason; positive punishment is the natural recompense of evil. Besides, due proportion between demerit and punishment would be rendered impossible by an indiscriminate annihilation of all the wicked. And finally, if men knew that their sins would not be followed by sufferings, the mere threat of annihilation at the moment of death, and still less the prospect of a somewhat lower degree of beatitude, would not suffice to deter them from sin.

In other words, without the threat of actual torture, people wouldn't care about Hell enough to matter.

Yes, I know the Church stresses the separation-from-God aspect as you do, but they pretty much have to do this to avoid appearing sadistic, don't they? That has nothing to do with the overall perspective of most people, though, where the primary focus of Hell is torture, not separation. You can't ignore 2000+ years of obsession with the particular gruesome torments of Hell when talking about how most people view it.

[Ben Kenobi]

If he becomes Pope, then you'll have to follow his ideas

He'll have to recant his earlier views to become pope.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, I know the Church stresses the separation-from-God aspect as you do, but they pretty much have to do this to avoid appearing sadistic, don't they? That has nothing to do with the overall perspective of most people, though, where the primary focus of Hell is torture, not separation. You can't ignore 2000+ years of obsession with the particular gruesome torments of Hell when talking about how most people view it.

Ok, lets get this straight. The Church is sadistic if they teach that Hell is full of physical suffering, and the Church is unappealing if they don't?

Seems to me damned if you do, damned if you don't. The church is trying to spare people of the suffering. The reason why they emphasise the separation from God aspect is to drive home the point that you need Christ.

[DirtyMartini]

Nah, you just need a Christian side-hug bo-yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[JEELEN]

It's not that God has chosen in advance who will go to Hell and who will not; it's just that Hell is outside of time, so whoever will - by their own choices - eventually get to Hell is currently in Hell for an eternity.

Hm, I see a problem here: if Hell is outside of time, how do you get in?

Also, if Hell is outside of time, it does not follow that God is out of time. (And vice versa.)

1. Purgatory is scriptural.

1 Corinthians 3:13-5



Paul is very clear here, this is exactly what purgatory is, the cleansing of sins from believers in preparation for ascending into heaven.

Ummm, no. That's what judgement by fire is. (That you are reading 'purgatory' into it -the term hadn't even been invented - is anachronistic Hineininterpretierung. Luke calls hell "a place of fire" and such references are to be found elsewhere as well.)

When you start off with being a condescending **** yourself, you shouldn't be surprised.

"You misunderstand Boris."

That's not how you start a discussion, that's how you come across like a jackass.

Yeah, that should read: "You misunderstand, Boris."

That's precisely why I made the comment that I did. Universal salvation is contrary to what the Catholic church teaches, regardless of what Cardinal O'Connor says. I anticipated Boris making this argument earlier. Purgatory is only for those who repent of their sins prior to death. You will not be given the opportunity to repent after death.

The Church teachings are closer to 'narrow is the road to salvation, and few enter, wide is the road to destruction and many follow'.

could have sworn the Catholic church has done away with Hell as a concept quite some time ago - if not in theory, then in practice...

In other words, without the threat of actual torture, people wouldn't care about Hell enough to matter.

It seems to me that to the believer separation from God is equal to eternal torture.

---

Oh, and the thread title is just a syllogism. It should read: If you die and go to hell or somebody goes back in time and kills your parents before you were born.

[SlowwHand]

Heaven and Hell are eternity. It's not something man can wrap their head around.
You can't possibly expect explanation from a human. Again, this is where faith comes in, to a point.
Even a hard core non-believing scientist has to realize that time is forever.

[notyoueither]

I was serious about the Asher-Ben rule. Sloww at least makes an attempt at masking his naked contempt for everybody other than himself, but Rah has crossed the line.

You do attack other posters.

[SlowwHand]

I didn't see that before. Thanks. I don't really have contempt for anyone that just wants to talk.
If you follow me around talking crap, well, yeah. That antagonizes me.

[notyoueither]

(No.)

No no no. It's not that God has chosen in advance who will go to Hell and who will not; it's just that Hell is outside of time, so whoever will - by their own choices - eventually get to Hell is currently in Hell for an eternity.

Of course, if Hell is outside of time it's reasonable to assume that God is outside of time. But even dispensing with that speculative nonsense, if God is omniscient then, even if he grants humans the freedom to choose Heaven or Hell by their own actions, he still knows what their eventual choices will be.

And if a human's choices are affected by the actions of non-free-willed agents (the Earth), then it is by God's consenting actions (either direct interference or ancient creation) that he allows those he knows will go to Hell to go to Hell. But that's just another way of expressing the problem of evil, which pretty much all religious folk have to reconcile in their own fashion

I don't think He knows what choices will be made in advance.

That sort of robs the 'own image' part of creation.