If you die and go to hell and somebody goes back in time and kills your parents before you were born

[Ben Kenobi]

No, you just think your view of Hell is the only one because you're a self-centered jackass.

Oh come off it Boris. You were referencing the Christian concept of hell as eternal suffering as punishment for sins so you could fire your shot by saying, "but I'm so much more enlightened". You've been basically arguing that everyone gets into heaven eventually and that hell is only a temporary stop.

Correct?

Interesting idea, but raises the question, why have a hell at all?

[SlowwHand]

No, no, no. You don't go to Hell as yet another warning. By that point, you've pretty much played your cards.

[Kitschum]

Good thing I got a straight flush on the draw, get it?

[loinburger]

I just noticed that the Closed Forum tributary thread is misnamed - it should say "dickgirling," not "dicking"

[Boris Godunov]

Oh come off it Boris. You were referencing the Christian concept of hell as eternal suffering as punishment for sins so you could fire your shot by saying, "but I'm so much more enlightened".

I wasn't referencing any particular religion's concept of Hell, I was referencing the idea--which is common among many traditions--that Hell is eternal torture. If that's not what you believe Hell is, then I wasn't talking about what you believed. I know you're the self-appointed spokesperson for all things religious here on Apolyton, but you'd do well to recognize that you're only entitled to speak for yourself, and I wasn't talking to you.

You've been basically arguing that everyone gets into heaven eventually and that hell is only a temporary stop.

Correct?

No, and I can't imagine why you'd be so stupid to think I'd argue any such point, since you know I don't believe there is a Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Valhalla, etc.

Lori was listing some of the philosophical problems with the general idea of Hell, and I added one more to his list.

[Ben Kenobi]

know you're the self-appointed spokesperson for all things religious here on Apolyton, but you'd do well to recognize that you're only entitled to speak for yourself

Which justifies you being a dick? I wanted to engage you in a discussion, but I'm sorry to see it goes one way for you. I thought you were better than this Boris.

[Boris Godunov]

Which justifies you being a dick?

When you start off with being a condescending **** yourself, you shouldn't be surprised.

"You misunderstand Boris."

That's not how you start a discussion, that's how you come across like a jackass.

[Ben Kenobi]

When you start off with being a condescending **** yourself

Where's the condescension? Saying that you are mistaken is condescention, and then explaining why I thought you were wrong? Wow.

Not getting enough nookie or something Boris? You seem remarkably irritable.

[Boris Godunov]

If I were having a conversation with someone IRL, and another person who had a history like you do sidled over and injected himself into the discussion, started off with "you're wrong!" and showed that he clearly didn't understand the context of what was being discussed, I'd react pretty much the same way. You didn't bother to comprehend what was being said and instead tried to once again make the conversation about YOUR beliefs. That's what happens with *every* religious discussion when you get involved.

No one is interested in discussing your definition of Hell. That isn't even what the thread is about. So we can end the threadjack now.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh come off it Boris. You were referencing the Christian concept of hell as eternal suffering as punishment for sins so you could fire your shot by saying, "but I'm so much more enlightened". You've been basically arguing that everyone gets into heaven eventually and that hell is only a temporary stop.

Correct?

Interesting idea, but raises the question, why have a hell at all?

I take it you have heard of universial reconciliation, such as articulated by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and, of course, Erasmus. Even the Archbishop of Westminister (Cardinal O'Connor) said universal salvation could be compatible with Catholic teaching. And I believe it is accepted by a good deal of Eastern Orthodox thinkers as well (in their mind, Hell corresponds to Catholic notions of Purgatory).

[Boris Godunov]

The Mormons also believe in universal salvation, IIRC, or at least something close to it. That's why BK got his nose all out of joint a while back when the topic of Mormons baptizing non-believers in absentia after they've died came up. I, for one, think it's a great idea. If I happen to be wrong about Mormonism, I'm all for it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I take it you have heard of universial reconciliation, such as articulated by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and, of course, Erasmus. Even the Archbishop of Westminister (Cardinal O'Connor) said universal salvation could be compatible with Catholic teaching. And I believe it is accepted by a good deal of Eastern Orthodox thinkers as well (in their mind, Hell corresponds to Catholic notions of Purgatory).

That's precisely why I made the comment that I did. Universal salvation is contrary to what the Catholic church teaches, regardless of what Cardinal O'Connor says. I anticipated Boris making this argument earlier. Purgatory is only for those who repent of their sins prior to death. You will not be given the opportunity to repent after death.

The Church teachings are closer to 'narrow is the road to salvation, and few enter, wide is the road to destruction and many follow'.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's why BK got his nose all out of joint a while back when the topic of Mormons baptizing non-believers in absentia after they've died came up.

Exactly! This is the calibre of argument I'm more used to Boris.

[Boris Godunov]

Universal salvation is contrary to what the Catholic church teaches

So is the idea that Hell is merely separation from God rather than actual eternal torture, despite what you assert above.

[Ben Kenobi]

So is the idea that Hell is merely separation from God rather than actual eternal torture, despite what you assert above.

I believe that eternal separation is in, and of itself torture.

You are correct though that the Catholic church teaches that there is eternal fire in hell.

This is all from the catechism:

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."